@julia.dakin your plan implies there are already crosses in the beans you’ll be planting. Or are you doing this just hoping there will be crosses in there already?
The calculation # of plants producing off types / # of plants all up x 100 in the first year after crossing occurred should give you some idea of crossing rate. If this isn’t the first year post crosses I’m not sure what it will be telling you.
I am hoping the crossing rate is higher than a mix of heirloom beans and that there are crosses already that have been happening over the years when I didn’t have them. Here is why… minute 7.50 in the bean lesson Joseph is talking about people sending him their off types/ natural hybrids to add to the mix. That particular sentence isn’t in the youtube version unfortunately so you have to go back to the lesson. But also because for me they seemed double vigorous. Am I being too optimistic?
It sounds to me like you have excellent reasons for optimism!
Carol Deppe said in one of her books that she prefers to be optimistic, to make her first attempt, “What would be the most convenient and/or desirable for me, if it works?” I think that’s a good policy. Why not start with your greatest hope, even if the odds seem low, just in case it really does work?
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I might have an easier/different goal than you which I should have clarified. Not going towards stability of anything, but maximum promiscuity over time. I think like Joseph is intending and same idea for the promiscuous tomatoes.
I’m operating under the assumption that if it crossed once, it’s more likely to cross again, and if I can find and select the crossers at a higher rate than average, it will move there faster, and I will know (for my garden) instead of guess, ending up with a fully outcrossing bean population. But I suppose faulty assumptions, chance, lack of bean knowledge, time, weather, … all those of course may make this just a tedious bean counting exercise in the end.
I have not separated a quart of kidney beans and quart of kidney beans from the promiscuous beans if anyone else wants to join me and just plant a single color!
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I totally hear you on the toddler handicap, in whatever way it manifests!!
Bean lovers! We now have a limited supply of some exciting, speedy common beans in stock. These are the ones Julia discussed earlier in this thread. Hoping that some of you will grow these out this year, and contribute back to the mix for 2024. Check them out at: Bean, Common – Going To Seed
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Awesome! I will totally plant those and grow those this year! I hope I’ll get lots of seeds back and can contribute back more than I received. 
you wouldn’t ship them to france, would you ? (just kidding)
Update: I sorted out the pinto colored beans from the promiscuous mix, then I planted them separately. I’m 100% sure each bean looked almost exactly the same (to me).
I’m pleasantly surprised at the diversity in vigor, insect resistance, leaf shape, texture and color. Very fun to watch these.
Check out the one with pink veins on the bottom
Some produce those magic insect repellents, some don’t
Nutrient deficiencies vary
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Julia: I took your photo and circled seeds that I recognize as recent hybrids, and put an X through some that I think have not changed since they arrived in my garden.
Mark: I did a search to try to find slight changes in seed coat color in the F1. Wasn’t successful. I haven’t tried the seed size difference in beans, though was successful in finding hybrids that way in tomatoes.
This year, I sorted and planted by color. Intending to try to identify natural hybrids.
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Oooh. Those sound like plants to be sure to save seeds from! Sounds like their parents must have arrived crossed with another variety, which may mean they’re open to crossing. Very neat.
hello Mark, all this discussion is very enligntening for me. There is one thing I would love to understand better : why precisely do you prefer the semi-runner behaviour ?
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That’s interesting. I wonder if the semi-runner behavior is partly environmental, and not entirely genetic? If so, that would make it hard to stabilize for.
There is some relationship between water/etc. and ultimate plant size, but I’m pretty sure there’s a strong genetic component.
I’m part of a group that grows out interesting culinary beans to see how they behave, and in general we find consistent habits from garden to garden. Every so often, though, we’ll find a dramatic difference from year to year, suggesting that there was a difference between batches/crops that isn’t reflected in the bean appearance. I also had one row of Santa Maria Pinquitos a couple years ago that diverged into pink beans that looked like the parents and pink cut-short beans.
thank you mark for this explanation . Here is how I prepare to have my climbing beans grow all mixed togheter (first time I grow them mixed.) some of them just started to climb up. I hope they will mix event more at the top of the structure. We shall see what this gives…
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I believe Blue Lake comes in both bush and runner varieties, so the seeds may just have gotten mixed.
willows . it was a great pleasure to create this piece of land art.
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That’s really neat! I’m delighted that you found some with a growth habit you like, and you’ve learning valuable information for the future, on top of it!
Any updates on bean colors from your patch?
I harvested the pinto colored beans from the Promiscuous mix. Here are the preliminary results.
Background: I planted only pinto colored beans from the The Lofthouse Promiscuous population. Originally I was going to inspect each plant separately and pull the whole plants of the off colored beans. But I didn’t have enough time between when they were dry, and rain, so I ended up harvesting them all together. Yesterday threshed. They were grown in a separate area, different planting day than the others so I’m 100% sure these different colored ones are actually hybrids. I don’t have actual numbers to determine promiscuous rate. It will have to be by weight. I have 12.5 lbs from this row of beans.
- Off color types may not be more than 3%
- I’ll be missing all the hybrids that still look like pinto beans
- And missing the beans that were crossed this year
- Within the beans that still look like pintos, there is a lot of variation! Suggesting there are plenty more
- Average bean color got a LOT lighter this year from environmental factors. Didn’t realize that was so variable.
- I suppose we don’t know for sure that just because a bean crossed in the past it will be more likely to do it again (or do we know that?)
So this may be a dubious project but I still love it! In fact, I think we should expand diversity and continue Joseph’s project of collecting other people’s off types/natural hybrids and build a population of known natural hyrids. Bean steward @clweeks what do you think about soliciting bean donations from heirloom bean facebook groups? I’d be happy to send some SASEs to people who say they have them.
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