Interesting so both the Seeds and the Fruit were bitter, I’m wondering if you could just find the gene that turns on the bitter cucurbitacin and just turn it off with GMO tech? Would that be easier and faster or no?
Also excellent Pictures, Really Appreciate seeing them, I’m learning a Crap ton form them.
Very interesting, Pfaf did warn about the toxicity of the sprouting seed in it’s embryo (Which Probably refers to the Cotyledons). I think you might’ve just not ate enough cuz even a little gave you “Numbing Tangy Flavor”. Maybe for safety just don’t do Microgreens with Cucurbita?
Have you tried taking cuttings or freezing pollen? That way if a Specific Squash Plant Specimen tasted really good, you could continue to keep pollinating new plants with it? Surely/Theoretically if you take cuttings, you can grow Squash indefinitely right?
That way you could have back ups to go to? Or Possibly use Grafting to Encourage more Crosses?
IDK just some ideas to think about.
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WOW! That’s insane level of bitterness. Somehow like Vapo-rub!? Oh sheit! I Don’t think the bitterness in the stamens of my C. maxima Flowers came close to menthol level. (It did linger and was very bitter like ear wax with lasting effect).
It makes it feel like ornamental squashes would be less bitter? IDK
I like the Small size, I also hoping to eventually landrace “Pocket Squash”, that could be great for stuffing rice n beans with after being oven cooked.
At the moment I want to clarify that I have not tasted the seeds.
About the cotyledon, I think you and I would both agree in retrospect that it would have been better to wait for a true leaf to emerge and then taste a lot more of a cotyledon leaf, maybe just the whole thing.
I appreciate your interest and your questions. In the future I’d like to try to write up my hypothetical scenario for the genetics of this, a simplified flowchart based on the academic model with three genetic loci that I posted above.
My thoughts assume working on a small scale like I am – I imagine that if I had hundreds or thousands of crossed egg gourd seeds, it would be possible to germinate dozens at a time and be able to eat the whole thing without concern of needing it to still grow to maturity.
I have about 40 seeds, having harvested a range of 5-15 from 5 fruits. That puts me in the position of even wanting to keep this one vine alive indoors, just in case it is a viable cross
I appreciate your responses and Photos! I’m learning a Crap ton from your Knowledge and Experience.
Very True, I haven’t tried eating Cotyledons from Non Bitter Squash just as a Control. I’m curious as to how bitter the Cotyledons of Cucurbita truly are, and why Snails love to eat them so much. Snails eat Kale (that’s not Spicy/Hot Like Mustard), Spinach, Swiss Chard, all other not to ridiculously bitter leafy plants. Could the snails be telling us something valuable here?
Also since were discussing Egg Gourds, I’m curious, what is the smallest Cucurbita Fruit? Is there a Squash the size of small Cherry Tomatoes that can be Boiled and eaten with the skin and all? Maybe the fruit might carry like 1-3 seeds per berry, but still would be very interesting to grow? Is this where your Breeding Attempts may go? Since the Egg Gourds are already pretty small for a Squash?
Go for it, Cuz I want to see how long a Squash can last before Frost Kills it. Since Cucurbita spp. are true annuals that die back once enough fruit has been made, but what if the off chance you made a perennial cucurbita, that doesn’t die when fruit ripens? Or if you just keeping taking cutting indefinitely. Since you would always be taking cuttings from plants that haven’t formed fruit, if the annual theory is correct and fruiting is what causes Cucurbita die back (Not Frost) than it would be an interesting experiment for sure. It would mean you can grow the same Cucurbita spesimen for years and years, just like how it was done for the Grammy Smith Apple right?
Speaking of which, do you know what Triggers Fruiting in all Cucurbita? are they all Day Neutral or are some Short Day where short days trigger flowering?
I still have this one plant Alpha-1, uncreatively-named as the first survivor from the first of the five fruit which matured in 2023. There are some sweet potato leaves in the background, which really contrast with the mildewy leaves of A-1.
One male flower has already matured. I’ve harvested pollen and removed the flower to dry it to try to get every bit of pollen.
I will estimate that the vine is 1/3 the size of its mother and all potential fathers at the same point in their development. Those plants all had a mildew infection at this point as well. Probably the reduced size is due to my improvised indoor growing environment not being as good as the garden. If A-1 follows the pattern, it will be past the worst of the mildew within another two or three weeks.
With only one vine, infected with mildew, growing indoors where I’ve never grown squash, I feel my odds of getting fruit are relatively low. Yet I can’t help feeling some excitement and optimism that this will turn out to be a cross, and that it will produce some seeds.
I feel your excitement too! What you are Doing is AWESOME!!!
Very Smart! I would do the same. Are you going to Freeze the Pollen for long storage? Are you also collecting other cucurbita pollen in a Jar to mix it with?
I have been continuing this project. While the progress has been interesting, I have encountered a setback.
I saved seeds from 5 potential crosses, which I designated with Greek letters Alpha through Epsilon. The number of seeds varied per fruit, with Alpha having the most, about 15 seeds.
In October, I planted 3 or 4 seeds from Alpha indoors. One seed germinated and produced about 3 male flowers before dying. I’m not sure of the cause. There are photos of this plant earlier in the thread. I saved pollen from two of the Alpha flowers at room temperature.
Last month I started seeds from many kinds of squash outdoors in plastic tubs filled with soil. Each of the potential egg gourd crosses was planted into its own tub.
Squash germination has been good overall and most seedlings are growing their first or second true leaves. Unfortunately germination has been 0% among all 5 of the potential egg gourd crosses.
I don’t remember the parent egg gourds having delayed germination, and neither did the one seedling that grew indoors in October. I will continue to hope for germination, but I am also considering planting some of my original egg gourd seeds in order to try making the cross in the other direction, with the patty pan squash as mother.
I do have some patty pan squash seedlings already growing, so I can try the saved pollen from October.
When I planted the potential crosses, I held back at least a couple of seeds for each one in reserve depending on how many there were to work with. Since my previous update, I put out all of those remaining seeds.
The good news is that Alpha, which had the most seeds of any, now has several germinated seedlings. None of the seeds from other potential crosses germinated.
Growing out Alpha gives me something to look forward to with this project. And I’ve decided that I am interested enough in this project to be willing to potentially restart from the beginning should Alpha not work out.
Therefore I’ve started a few egg gourds, as well as white patty pan and Desi squash. I’m excited about Desi because I had mistakenly believed it to be a big-seed/central American type C. pepo, but it actually has the small North American type seeds of similar morphology to the egg gourd and patty pan.
Desi gives me another potential cross. Desi is also pure white and is even closer in shape and size to the egg gourd than the patty pan is.
Yes in terms of those classifications, the egg gourd seems to be the texana subspecies, and I’m looking for a ‘morphologically similar’ white squash from the same subspecies to cross with if possible.
I’ve interplanted Alpha egg gourds (pink ribbons) with desi squash in a bed. One critical moment will be when I can see what shape the Alpha fruit is, and to determine if it is bitter.
I have enough of my various egg gourd, desi, and patty pan starts sitting on the porch for three more plantings this size. I need to identify more locations and get them in the ground soon!
I have White Acorn Squash Seeds. I saved them from a Walmart Grocery Store. They tasted like Mashed Potatoes with a hint of vanilla sweetness (Delicious & Perfectly edible with zero bitterness). Acorn types are the same subspecies texana. These seeds germinate & Grow well but Groundhogs & deer ate everything sadly. I Still have some left over, you want some?
A stranger found these gourds in Missouri a few days ago and with luck the seeds will be headed to me. They noticed them floating on a lake, and floating on water has been mentioned a couple of other times in stories about foraging wild C. pepo.
For people in their native range, maybe keep an eye on bodies of water starting this time of year. See if you notice anything bobbing up and down
Incredible! I didn’t know Cucurbita fruits can float!? That might explain it’s strategy to float. Do you think the seeds heading your way will make bitter fruit? Also is it possible to mentor graft those seelings to speed up breeding goals?
Also wild C. pepo, do both subspecies cross often in the wild? I know they cross readily in a garden setting.
The non-bitter varieties are starting to form male flowers so I have put some in a plastic bag held open by a ball of loose paper towels. Now that I’ve written that out I’m still feeling concerned that they won’t dry out well enough
I’m new to storing pollen
This is a very busy time for me professionally so It seems particularly wise to save pollen while I can
Yea, What i’ve did was just put the ripped off male flowers without the petals on a Folded Paper to dry a bit so it could shed their pollen onto the paper. That’s how I got pollen into a glass jar to store into a freezer. I never stored pollen in a freezer as I used it before then, at room temperature pollen will rot.
I think we both should take notes from the dragon fruit & Marijuana communities, they’re practically pros on how to freeze & store pollen.
You have convinced me to be more systematic in my pollen collection and storage. I appreciate the wisdom of learning from other plant breeding communities that have put energy into understanding these protocols.
The photo of the bed of squash shows the a group of ‘alpha’ vines interplanted with desi vines. This represents about a third of the 2024 plantings for this project.
I will not be able to visit these again for longer than I would like, frustrating! The first two female flowers on any egg gourd plants have just appeared, both on alpha mothers. I wish I would be able to work in this garden during the next week but chances are it will be on its own.
One important milestone will be when I can taste fruit from an alpha vine for bitterness. Presumably I will be able to do that with one of these first two. If alpha fruit is bitter I will treat it like the other uncrossed egg gourd vines I am growing.
Edit: This last photo is of the new egg gourd fruit and seeds foraged in Missouri. So exciting! I should have another project update within a week.
Alpha is a cross between egg gourd and patty pan. It has bitter fruit, but I’m coming to understand that might be inevitable in this generation.
I admit I wish I had started out working with desi rather than patty pan, so I wouldn’t have to address the physical ridges which have come in with the patty pan genetics. But I’m very glad to have this cross to work with and learn from. One convenient thing is that the ridges make it clear which fruits are from hybrid parents.
I look forward to learning more about this. I can tell I’m missing some important parts of the puzzle. I am planning to continue this project forward, there is all kinds of small white pepo fruit around my gardens now. I need to decide what crosses to prioritize for the remainder of 2024.
I do have my beds laid out incorrectly though in terms of what I understand I need to do for my breeding project.
So I plan to manually pollinate some of the Desi squash from my population of wild and feral egg gourds. Then I would look for a bitter offspring from that cross to add to my project next year. When there is not a physical characteristic like the patty pan ridges, I’m pretty sure it makes more sense to cross the bitter male parent into a non-Bitter female parent. That way it is obvious when the next generation is bitter that you have a cross even if they don’t look obviously different morphologically.
This bed above has the uncrossed egg gourd. Unfortunately for me there is a neighboring patch of Alpha vines that I placed to facilitate cross pollination with the wild types.
I now realize my priority for Alpha should be self and sibling pollination. I’m going to see if I can manage that even though it’s so close to the wild gourds.
Because I planted the separate bed of wild type egg gourds and the additional domesticated pepos, I have been able to arrange two different open pollinated crosses where I diligently emasculate the mother plants. I have started experimenting with wax pencils for labeling, and one of the photos shows how I have labeled crosses on an emasculated vine.
I’m also seeing growth on some of my new F1 crosses with wild mothers. I have been bagging those and manually pollinating. At this point in the season I’m at a fortunate place where I’m trying to think if there’s anything fun or interesting I want to try crossing while there’s still time for the seeds to mature.
I need to be careful about making so many crosses that I don’t have space in the existing gardens for this project next year.
Health problems prevent me from being able to spend almost any time outdoors right now, and I also have had a hard time physically bending down. My various squash pollinations have been the main priority of my gardening for the last month, I can skip a day but I generally need to manage my squash flowers at least every other day it helps make sure I get some fresh air!
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange has recently started selling this Kars egg squash. It seems like it has been available in the US for at least three years via Two Seeds in a Pod, but I hadn’t come across this variety.
I will have to try to grow these next year. I can’t remember seeing the Kars egg’s light green coloration which extends slightly into the flesh on my egg gourds, but that is a relatively minor difference. I believe it probably falls within the natural range of variation in egg gourds. The few photos I’ve seen make me imagine they must be pretty closely related to the wild form. I would think this an even more suitable non-bitter cross than desi squash. I will definitely need to get some seeds for the Kars egg!
The first two female flowers on any egg gourd plants have just appeared, both on alpha mothers. I wish I would be able to work in this garden during the next week but chances are it will be on its own.
it helps make sure I get some fresh air!
