# Viable Tri-species Cucubita Hybrid **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussions\ **Tags:** squash, hybrids\ **Created:** [September 11, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461 "2023-09-11T18:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jacob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@Jacob](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Jacob)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/1 "2023-09-11T18:07:19Z")
Today I found a research group that saw that when you breed genetically variable squash and did interspecies pollination, most of the seeds were nonfertile. They saw the keyword, _most_, and thought hey, at least its not 0%. They through every trick at it including back crossing, outcrossing, and self/sibling crossing to power through the dismal fertility rates in the first dozen generations. They outlined a very confusing breeding protocol (Attached as an image if I did this right) they developed to create a tri-species hybrid that could readily pollinate and create fertile offspring with pepo, moschata, and maxima squash. Their goal was to create a genetic bridge to be able to easily transfer disease resistance and environmental tolerance between the species. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like them or the company they developed these through sell any of the 11 strains they developed. > **[Development of Advanced Interspecific-bridge Lines among Cucurbita pepo, C....](https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/47/4/article-p452.xml)** > > Interspecific hybridization among the three most economically important cultivated species of Cucurbita spp., Cucurbita pepo, C. moschata, and C. maxima can be made but not readily. By means of various pollination measures, different mating systems,... ![full-452fig1 (1)](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/1/193b20e2e97047b8217d21cd95dc61c70d095ef9.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![markwkidd](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/markwkidd/32/297_2.png) [@markwkidd](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/markwkidd)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/2 "2023-09-11T18:21:30Z")
I have recently been reading this too. I would put forward that maybe someone should contact these researchers to see if the results might be shared. That’s the kind of thing I might take on in a month or two, even though it would maybe just be some emails I would like to be a bit more centered than I am right now. I’ve got this paper prominently bookmarked so that I keep thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jacob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@Jacob](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Jacob)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/3 "2023-09-11T20:24:22Z")
Out of curiosity, what other papers and sources are you all reading from? I have a few I found interesting and could share. I’m largely trying to get a trait out of both pepo and moschata and into maxima. I just went through and tried to find recent works for each of these authors. The only other works that they have published was them creating a lot of the ball summer squash I’m familiar with and several new pumpkin color patterns. I went looking for each of the authors and where they work now. The first author still works at Hollar. The second now works as a farm manager and squash breeder for another seed company. The third author is now the president of Hollar. I’m betting they used these hybrid strains to create a lot of their new PMR and virus resistant pumpkin/squash strains. I also found a patent for a gene that gives powdery mildew resistance in one of the pepo varieties they used for breeding stock for the hybrids 😕 If you’re interested I could point you in the direction of the second or third authors information that I found to contact them. Attached is the only picture of one of these tri-species in the paper that had a zucchini bush habit, moschata coloration and stem, and maxima fruit shape. Genetics 25% pepo, 25% moschata, 50% maxima before 12 rounds of sibling inbreeding so who knows what it was after that. ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/1/12e96eb9d8291250ea94d9e8c67ccff52e869b84.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![markwkidd](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/markwkidd/32/297_2.png) [@markwkidd](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/markwkidd)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/4 "2023-09-11T20:56:45Z")
Here’s one interspecies reference you might be interested in that’s also ready at hand for me: [Crossing the bitterness out of cucurbita pepo egg gourds - #11 by markwkidd](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/crossing-the-bitterness-out-of-cucurbita-pepo-egg-gourds/168/11) I was working on the squash related parts of Wikipedia a few months back. Let me try to remember other references that might be useful. I looked at quite a few and they’re getting a bit blurry in retrospect ☕ when I know there is someone else interested it can help perk up my memory though! ---
**Author:** ![anon14613632](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@anon14613632](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/anon14613632)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/5 "2023-09-11T23:16:07Z")
I am interested and will be following this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jacob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@Jacob](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Jacob)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:23pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/6 "2023-09-11T23:23:22Z")
Hmm, I haven’t though about the possibility of reintroduction of bitterness with my future crosses. I’ll have to figure out how to test for it earlier (like tasting the leaves I saw mentioned on this forum) so I can remove the bitter plants. Here are two articles that I found interesting. One of these was an old article that was one of the first to bring the ZYMV resistance trait from pepo to moschata through traditional breeding. The other is a relatively new article about bringing the hull-less trait from pepo into moschata (what I want to do with maxima). Funnily enough, the older article mentions how its easier to make the interspecies crosses using outbreed or genetically diverse samples instead of inbred varieties, so landrace stock should have a leg-up if someone wanted to work harder on this. From what I’m seeing, its only the first 2-4 generations that have some fertility issues that need a lot of nursing (which is probably why F2 and F3s are rare in nature, if only 0.2-1% of F1 seeds are fertile), but after that they rapidly recover to normal breeding rates. This is only what I’ve seen through pepo, moschata, and maxima research, I’ve seen others say crosses with arygyrosperma, ficifolia, and lundelliana have better chances. [s41598-023-29935-9.pdf](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/uploads/short-url/a9hk0ILj44WQTKeZZaeFF5zcMlm.pdf) (1.6 MB) [Annals of Applied Biology - 2005 - PARIS (1).pdf](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/uploads/short-url/nI4rLvgKd2RZwd8G9F0OuKysKUc.pdf) (1.1 MB) ---
**Author:** ![DebbieA](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/debbiea/32/102_2.png) [@DebbieA](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/DebbieA)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/7 "2024-02-02T15:16:04Z")
Hi, all. This is your moschata/maxima squash steward, Debbie. I’d like to gauge interest in interspecies squash hybrids. If you have a moment, please comment here: > [@Interspecies squash hybrids](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/interspecies-squash-hybrids/1990): > > Hi, all. This is your moschata/maxima squash steward, Debbie. I’d like to gauge interest in interspecies squash hybrids. Which species have you crossed? Have you had success in growing them over several generations? Would you have viable seeds to share? Should we consider offering them to the community, either in our current mixes or separately? Please chime in here. Thanks in advance for your input! ---
**Author:** ![VeggieSavage](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/veggiesavage/32/3383_2.png) [@VeggieSavage](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/VeggieSavage)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2025, 12:40pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/8 "2025-01-02T12:40:37Z")
Why stop at 3 species, lets include _C. ficifolia_ & _C. angyrosperma_ & make a 5 way species cross. I’m convinced All _Cucurbita_ Species are cross-compatible with Mentor Pollination & Thorough Introgression to get pass F1 sterility. I keep debating with myself if _C. lundelliana_ is necessary or not, cuz I have no _C. lundelliana_ but have lots of diversity among all the 5 cultivated species & wondering if I’ve captured enough diversity to cross everything together as a Landrace. I plan to make the initial interspecies crosses via Mentor Pollination by tricking Female flowers into accepting forign species pollen as to not reject it’s own. For example I take _C. pepo_ pollen, mix it with _C. moschata_ pollen then apply the mix to both _C. maxima_ & _C. moschata_ female flowers. This forces the _C. pepo_ to accept _C. maxima_ pollen as to not reject _C. pepo_ pollen. I successfully got _C. maxima_ flowers pollinated by _C. pepo_ pollen like this, sadly someone cut the fruit off because I was doing it on suburban/urban land I don’t own (Not having land really holds my breeding experiments back 😭). Like you said Landraces will have a leg up because the genetic mixing is automatically more Genetically plastid. Reguardless after mentor Pollination, some seeds inside the fruit will be pure _C. pepo_ but others will be _C. maxima_ x _C. pepo_. If you’re really good at Squash species ID, spotting the Hybridized seeds inside the fruit may be possible becuase even tho Seedcoats are Mother/Maternal Material, the Embyro inside is half & half, meaning pollen can affect embyro size thus effecting the size of the seeds. For example if my _C. pepo_ has tiny seeds & my _C. maxima_ has huge seeds, it would be easier to spot the size difference even if all the seedcoats are the same. Now getting past F1 is the problem most people get stuck on. This happens because of a lack of Introgression. To get pass the sterile F1 Stage, requires both Parent Species that made the Hybrid Offspring be Present to cross with it’s hybrid offspring (It isn’t capable of crossing because the genetics aren’t thoroughly mixed yet, much like how 1 swirl in cooking a cake doesn’t mix the ingredients well). Basically repeat the Mentor Pollination Process, Mix Both parent species pollens as well as the Hybrid Offspring pollen & than Pollinate all Female Flowers (Cuz some directions work better than others, do them all for maximum success). Do this each generation until the species all introgress into 1 species. This is how the _Cucurbita pepo_ we know & love was made, it actually use to be 2 seperate species (_Cucurbita pepo_ & _Cucurbita texana_) that were introgressed together thru an ancient hybrid swarm event (It was actually domesticated twice). You can still sometimes see the 2 subspecies by the penduncle. _Remember, these traits are all fluid, in fact all Squash Species ID traits are fluid_. ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/2/290efd6c2d614160b1658e368f4d18da6e6f1203.jpeg) The Interspecies Squash cultivar **Honeynut** (_C. maxima x C. moschata_) Was stabelized thru many introgressions like this. That’s why it’s able to pollinate it self reliable & make True Seed. This wouldn’t have been possible without both species being present during getting past F1 sterlity. Lots of Seed sellers still make the mistake of Labelling them as Pure _C. moschata_ and I can’t fault them, it’s mostly _C. moschata_ genetics (Roughly 80% _C. moschata_ & 20% _C. maxima_). Among the Cultivated Squash, _Cucurbita ficifolia_ has the least genetic Diversity, no wonder they all kind of look the same. I say this because this is how Rhizowen got the Orange Trait into _C. ficifolia_. ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/7/7918df1d885dd1e3ea07d6022d93b2c43b5b1e43.jpeg) I strongly suspect the reason he couldn’t get pass F1 Sterlity is due lack of introgression. This is a cross I want to recreate & learn from his mistakes. Here’s the link to his _C. maxima_ x _C. ficifolia_ Blog Post : > **[And Now For Something Completely Different](https://radix4roots.blogspot.com/2010/02/and-now-for-something-completely.html?m=1)** > > Research and findings on alternative root crops in temperate climates. I think you’ll find this _Cucurbita_ Squash Phylogenic Tree useful. What’s interesting is the inbetween Position of _C. lundelliana_. ![Cucurbita Phylogenic Tree nph16015-fig-0003-m](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/7/76a1df846c4dd41132ab3df9057849800a4d1290.jpeg) I also wonder if a 5 species Squash Landrace could also cross with other closely related genera like _Peponopsis_. Intergeneric Hybridization would be fun to explore! ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/b/b82e654cf665fe258765b8841e75626787c0a4ed.png) ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 12:06am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/9 "2025-02-26T00:06:49Z")
Can pollen be harvested and stored? Dryed or frozen…and still be usable? ---
**Author:** ![VeggieSavage](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/veggiesavage/32/3383_2.png) [@VeggieSavage](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/VeggieSavage)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2025, 7:37am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/10 "2025-03-05T07:37:00Z")
Fantastic question! Yes but it depends on the species. I think Squash Pollen is storable frozen (But I haven’t tested this or found any research on the topic yet). Freezing Pollen is something I want to do to take plant breeding to the next level eventually. As for actually freezing pollen, learn fro the Marijuana Community, they’re pros at pollen freezing techniques which can apply to other species. Some Dragonfruit growers also freeze pollen, found great pollen freezing tutorials on youtube from both gardeners. ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2025, 3:10pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/11 "2025-03-07T15:10:01Z")
Indeed, interesting. Im wondering if saving pollen from year to year would help mix up the genetics. Several tribes collect corn pollen for prayer gatherings and those corn plants produce an abundance of pollen. Im thinking too…maybe endophytes within the pollen. Gotta have a way for those beneficial fungi to transfer too. Endophytes within the soil, but seems like pollen would hold them as well. Microscopic photos of pollen show spaces for traveling fungi spores or bacteria to ride comfortably. The symmetry is fascinating to view. ---
**Author:** ![VeggieSavage](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/veggiesavage/32/3383_2.png) [@VeggieSavage](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/VeggieSavage)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/12 "2025-03-07T15:40:40Z")
> [@Kimzy](#): > > Im thinking too…maybe endophytes within the pollen. Good thoughts! I wonder if those endophytes are what facilitate Horizontal Gene Flow between the Corn Pollens? I’ve heard HGT can happen even between pollen when mixed & germinating on the Female part. > [@Kimzy](#): > > Microscopic photos of pollen show spaces for traveling fungi spores or bacteria to ride comfortably. The symmetry is fascinating to view. WOW! That’s incredible, think about how many epigentic influences they can have on pollen & seeds, on top of the Horizontal Gene Transfer potential. ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2025, 8:48pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/13 "2025-03-07T20:48:50Z")
Some photos of the strawberry spinach, its still really small. ![20250307_130042](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/c/c06964c6c6ce7daa357d480fbf3aa9551f2c93f8.jpeg) ![20250307_125920](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/7/705173a5f42c3c0e94a777f4c77e5a75554cb74a.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2025, 12:56am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/14 "2025-03-09T00:56:05Z")
The unknowns… ![20250308_173952](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/4/4972dc92605fe9c01d84a6f94662b6adb06112e3.jpeg) ![20250308_174015](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/4/47e056cb1d4c52960360e5463bd6501c797eb8be.jpeg) And these… ![20250308_174029](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/e/ebe977a07a6592a139feef548860a3300c83a516.jpeg) ![20250308_174033](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/f/f332250191f9fdb9fd08eea5ccb65bc5b65a6429.jpeg) Probably not a good angle now that I have glasses on… ---
**Author:** ![anon941399](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@anon941399](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/anon941399)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 10:16am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/15 "2025-03-12T10:16:33Z")
> [@Kimzy](#): > > The unknowns… Interesting. Where did the stock seed originate from? ---
**Author:** ![VeggieSavage](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/veggiesavage/32/3383_2.png) [@VeggieSavage](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/VeggieSavage)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 6:18pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/16 "2025-03-14T18:18:33Z")
oh my… how did I miss this one. Yea most of those seedlings look like Cucumbers because the leaves are quite triangular. _Cucumis melo_ is typically a lot more round like the palm of your hand. That’s my guess. When the female flowers form, you’ll be able to ID 100%. _Cucumis melo_ never has bumps on their ovaries, sometimes it’s hairy/fuzzy. _Cucumis sativus_ has glassy/translucent glands/bumps on the ovary. ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/8/87e3c6ceb9f3eabf2c3f1f8fbe61fc88ef22d833.jpeg) ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/d/dd50176634407c2cf814fdc7070926b6b9cc7404.jpeg) I hope this gives you a better idea of what to look for, altho the leaves can be variable. ---
**Author:** ![anon941399](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@anon941399](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/anon941399)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/17 "2025-03-16T14:04:34Z")
![20241104_143703](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/5/5050f2817477a6798ebaced2d2ac04055e0fb6b6.jpeg) This is from my home. 2024 Season. The seed originated from me. I sent seed (almost a pound) into the program and have not heard what happened to it. I am growing her out to pledge to OSSI. She is spectacular and is indeed an interspecies hybrid cross. I have had challenges (creative solutions to infertility) and maybe someday will discuss them further on this site. She was not bred via the methods discussed here. She is open pollinated and a gift. ![20250224_150724](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/5/5212bdcedd4fe561a722a4688c0d53ac7cb0d6d8.jpeg) ![20241001_164248](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/landracegardening/original/2X/6/6fe09259da5cc0ca74397fde80a0cdf47efc696b.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![DebbieA](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/debbiea/32/102_2.png) [@DebbieA](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/DebbieA)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/18 "2025-03-17T01:31:37Z")
Could Kim’s unknowns be squash seedlings, as @anon941399 suggests? The cotyledons and stems seem quite large/thick. I couldn’t see any hulls in @Kimzy 's photographs. Are there other ways to identify the species? ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 12:45am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/19 "2025-03-18T00:45:57Z")
Hi, I had some saved seed from 2022 and mixed a bunch of heirloom seed inside a jar. Ill just have to wait to see what they are as they grow out… if they are cukes or squash. Im thinking they are a squash… ---
**Author:** ![Kimzy](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/goingtoseed.discourse.group/kimzy/32/14489_2.png) [@Kimzy](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/u/Kimzy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 12:47am UTC](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461/20 "2025-03-18T00:47:58Z")
Ooo, yes looks like a squash. [Next page](https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/viable-tri-species-cucubita-hybrid/1461.md?page=2)