in Nice I observed a longnecked moschata used as zucchini, i.e. courgette in French, but harvested BEFORE flowering, and which they called “courgette longue de Nice”. Observed in the field last summer: see the short internodes + the fact that they are all female flowers, and sometime doubled or tripled.
It’s very important to note that under the same name “Longue de Nice” 2 very different strains have been bred locally: one for summer use (harvested before flowering, short internodes, etc.) one for winter use (less fruits, usually huge).
yes indeed there is also this pepo used as summer squash “Ronde de Nice”
I’ll send to Malte seeds of both Trumpetta d’Albenga and “courgette longue de Nice”. I can send seeds of the first to anyone interested, got only a few of the second.
The trompettes/tromboncino used as summer squash are usually very light green. they don’t disintegrate at all during cooking (or lose much water). They also stay usable when much bigger (almost to full size).
I found some plants that produced darker courgettes (like on your photo, Thomas) but they didn’t have the right texture when cooking and didn’t work as well in traditional recipes. I have taken notes to keep a close eye on them this summer to figure out what’s going on…
Hi Malte,
I’m in East Anglia, supposedly dry and sunny… (coming from the Mediterranean, I have a different definition of dry and sunny )
Unfortunately we can’t exchange seeds between UK and EU (I really hope they rethink those rules soon!) but I could send you some seeds that my mum has been saving when I go over next. My original seeds were from Franchi seeds of Italy and they grew really well straight from the packet, which was surprising.
you have definitely a lot of seeds since ROW7 that look very interesting…thank you for give us a feedback on their flavors.
Hopefully you will manage to multiply them for our meeting in November!
Direct sown mid June this year. I would have wanted to direct sow them a few weeks earlier (had lots of work establishing the field as described here). They’re growing better than last year (where I planted from starts), but I can already tell that it might not be enough.
Most of the plants that survived germination are struggling. This part of the field was water-logged for a week or so - a big part of that was my own mistake, as I configured the irrigation computer in the wrong way. You can see the corn growing taller at the edge of the bed, where water could drain of more easily. Something similar happened to these zucchetta. The poor growth is probably caused by this in large part.
I noted this picture down as being from the zucchetta patch, but am starting to doubt myself because it is so much bigger. Maybe it was from the other moschata patch? Looks like a maxima. I’ll have to go check next time. Otherwise looks promising.
I will do a grow out of extra early long necked varieties for the 2026 season. Would be interested in discussing this here as per **Malte Rod’**s suggestion. It only makes sense to somewhat aggregate relevant information on specific projects under a common thread. Both for our own future reference and for newcomers alike. I will scatter photos of some of the seed stock I think could contribute immensely to this effort, as a cunning way to invite participation of the respective members, both with seed and ideas… also, it serves as a way to acknowledge the work of some of our fellow gardeners, excite the realm of the possibilities and makes this post seem less dense and more reader friendly.
So to be really precise, the idea is to work towards establishing an extra early long necked open pollinated Moschata population. I am volunteering to grow and intercross a selection of promising varieties, lines, landraces and individual plants, that could strongly contribute to this population during the 2026 season. The resulting grex will be distributed with participants for the 2027 growing season.
-Palatability of immature fruits and extending the growing range further North as the two main general criteria to select for. Many individual traits contribute to these and should be heavily present in the original mother population.
-”A highly curated handful of really promising parents/landraces and trying to get all the possible crosses among them, ideally including two way crosses both as pollen donor and fruit producer”. Due to the exponential nature of the number of individual crosses to be made each time a new variety is added, and the increased complexity of all the logistics involved, I am considering that the earliest 5 individual plants (from different accessions) should be the ones selected for the hand pollinated grex. If manageable, this would amount to 20 individual crosses: 4+3+2+1=10 times 2, for two-way cross =20
- The remaining plants, as long as they align with the general “extra early long necked open pollinated Moschata” objective, will also be screened and evaluated for relevant traits and the seed shared with members. Exceptional plants originating in grexes, landraces, F1 hybrids or otherwise unstabilized accessions, will be self pollinated if feasible, in order to stabilize desirable traits.
- If seed amount permits, they will be sown earlier than normal (the first of April if soil workability permits) in two different settings: both direct seed in the soil and in 1 liter plastic pots in a protected but roofless nursery house. The in situ plants will help inform propension for cold soil germination and cool weather development and will be tended and maintained to the end of the season. The potted plants will be transplanted to a different section of the trellises and will provide another setting for the comparison among accessions as well as the population from which to select the lines to be hand pollinated.
- No other Moschata will be grown in the 2026 growing season in the near vicinity (at least a 200m radius)
Would like to hear constructive feedback on how to make the most of this grow out.
I’m really excited about you coming onboard this project @verdeperto and find it much more fun to collaborate on these projects than go at it alone.
As I wrote in PM, I didn’t get any fruit from season 2025 unfortunately. I direct sowed 10th June. My other moschata struggled too, but did give fruit. In general, many of my crops produced much less than they use to and I attribute this to poor soil and lots of weed competition (first year turning what was just previously grassy field into a growing space). I am also growing them outside the city without the urban latent heat. My learning is I need to nurse the plants a bit more to get minimum 1-2 plants to set seed and start the cycle of adaptation.
Further down the line, after adapting to cool climate and short season, I think some interesting criteria for selecting would be firm flesh, more aroma (cucumber, melon) and lack of grainy texture. Personally, I really love the super-long necked tromboncino types, but long-necked butternuts are a good step on the way.
One limitation in building on butternut-genetics is that they haven’t been selected for immature eating. Tromboncino and zucchetta types have. My highest priority is northern adaptation and long necks. But it is worth keeping in mind.
If we could then add Søren Holt’s selections for long neck and fruit setting in Denmark (from initial population that came from Joseph, “Open Pollinated Land-race Moschata’s”.
…and among other varieties, Joseph’s land-race included Long of Naples (usually referred as very palatable at an immature stage) and “significant genetic diversity” from the Long Island Seed Project… maybe some of these genes…
…were already included in the seed Joseph sent to Søren. Either way, Søren has been shepherding this population in Denmark and actively selecting for many the traits that Malte and other northerners could find useful.
And also, from the criterious selections of Thomas Picard these really long Moschatas would be a terrific addition to the mix… even if these particular lines are being selected for palatability after storage.
Regarding the Canada Crookneck, some sources report 90 days but others up to 110. But too many of its reported traits seem highly desirable on any landrace to not try it… so I will grow it just to check if its early enough to add to the mix.
But you do have a point Malte… maybe my positive bias towards Adaptive Seeds “Butternut Early Remix” was keeping me from acknowledging they are too distanced from the long neck shape and immature fruit palatability, to be included. Even if they have consistently shown great earliness, as well as very good cool soil germination and cool weather tolerance on my farm, they would also add traits that could slow the evolution of the population towards the set goals.
So, this is the dream team for now (6 accessions for an ideal total 30 crosses):
I wouldn’t hesitate adding several accessions of tromboncino - they sometimes have slightly different names: Tromba D’Albenga, Zucchetta Rampicante etc. and my suspicion is that there might be some genetic diversity hidden in there and the names being loose.
I´ve been coming across “Korean Zucchini” or aehobak recently. They seem to be the go to summer squash in South Korea. They are moschata as well and have a compact fruit shape (like a delicata and without the pear shape of butternuts)
I can imagine the aehobak to be be a nice addition to the “long neck type grex”.
I´m planning to grow the aehobak out this year (as the mother) and cross them with “a bush moschata” for shorter Internodes and easier harvest/selection . Happy to share the F1 afterwards if everything goes as planned
(There is a guy in the US - Sylvan Roots - he dehybridized 2 aehobaks from korea and offers his selection in his etsy shop - for those interested in the US )
He also suggests that the small vines of aehobak can be easily curled up in the circle around the base as they grow, preventing stray vines from branching out into your other plants.
Seems intriguing to me since selecting vining plants is always a bit … difficult … and it feels unnecessary putting up nets or fences for climbing.
Thanks for your feedback. You made me remember a couple of forgotten things and discover a few more.
It sounds like a great idea to have some of that germplasm included in a grex for imature moschata. I know I would like to try them out in my garden and taste them if you manage to collect seed. Keep us up to date on that grow out… I suspect we all love veggie photos .
Unfortunately, for this specific project that is particularly focused on extending the growing range further North, I fear it could compromise both the earliness and cold tolerance as well as the elongated shape. One of the many things Ken Ettlinger was already thinking ahead of us all… I wonder how many of the new varieties of the last couple of decades, are actually stabilizations of his populations… without the acknowledgement Ken and LISP deserve.
Regarding the Bush Butternut, I too included it in my initial butternut population. The idea of more manegeable and behaved plants was very appealing… but found it sub-par on a number of traits, for my particular ecotype and growing practices… I ended up converging on the same kind of approach @ThomasPicard mentions in this podcast… one big sprawling plant followed by two smaller upright plantas… a “two sisters” of sorts.
You have a point regarding the variability of these different lines. And it makes sense to include them all in the trellised grow out, where free pollination would be the rule.
Tromba D’Albenga” from Franchi was suggested for the hand pollination based on @Julied’s experience who stated they “grew really well straight from the packet”… considering she is in the UK, I found that promising regarding the “Northification” of this population. And also because it produced both the darker fruits as well as the lighter green fruits that “don’t disintegrate at all during cooking (or lose much water). They also stay usable when much bigger (almost to full size).”
I sure would like to try out all the varieties we could get our hands on, to confirm their palatability. I have close to 150 meters of a two meter high fence that will be exclusively reserved to this, and can accommodate a lot of plants in the free pollination group.
But each new variety we add to the controlled pollination group, implies an extra mature fruit per plant. And due to the exponential nature of hand pollinations involved in order to cover all the possible two way crosses, it rapidly becomes unfeasible. For reference (and excluding self pollination of extraordinary individuals) going from 5 to 6 varieties in the controlled pollination group, implies a jump from 20 to 30 successful hand pollinations and a total of 6 mature fruits per plants. These 30 hand pollinations also imply that anyone going for a complete trial of these in 2027 will have to consider the same number of plants. If we go from 6 to 7 it will increase to 42, and from 7 to 8 rises to 56… and so on.
One can debate the relevance and validity of this “controlled pollination” approach, but I think it would be extremely informing to observe the development of the F1 during the 2027 season, in a setting like yours @malterod, even if you end up following other lines resulting from the free pollinating part of the grow out.
I believe it would be most fruitful if participants would suggest their own ideal crosses and request their favorite plant’s seed… For example @malterod, you could spot a really interesting plant among @Soeren’s lines in the open pollinated grow out and ask for a single one of it’s fruit to be pollinated with pollen from all the Tromboncino type varieties… or from all the plants in the controlled pollination group. I believe you would then have a lot bigger connection to the resulting seed and you would probably take care of them accordingly.
That moschata summer squash blend from Long Island Seed - I wonder if it is still going around or lines from it exists? That would be great to include in this project. Thank you for pointing me in that direction.
This is a great plan and I like your approach. I haven’t done a lot of family selection, as I understand your suggestion (growing out seed separately from each cross) and I’m excited to see the differences.
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