Thank you Emily for sharing so many details about your banana project. Bananas are something I have in the radar screen with no urgency and I love picking information here an there, and getting an idea of the difficulty. I wish you an excellent germination rate !
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Wishing you good germination on your banana project! Sounds fascinating!
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Thank you both! Me, too. 
So far, almost all of the seeds have sunk to the bottom of the cups, instead of floating, which I think is a good sign of them having soaked in a bunch of water, which is what I want for them to germinate. Most of them floated at first, so it seems like a good sign.
Some of them also have a tiny air bubble attached to the white spot where I clipped off a hole in the seed coat. I’m not sure what that means. Are the seeds breathing? Or, more likely, is that a sign that air is escaping because water is penetrating all the way in? I’ve never seen something like this before. Have any of you?
I took some pictures!
Here’s what they all look like on my desk:
The plastic cups in the front are the ones with all the rest of my seeds soaking.
The plastic container in the back contains six Musa aurantica and six Musa velutina seeds, each in its own cup with moist soil, with a lid on top. I soaked them first and scarified them afterwards, planting them in soil on December 21, 2022. Every other day or so, I’m lifting the lid to give them a bit of fresh air, since I read that that’s a good idea.
I didn’t have any plastic bins that were perfect for this purpose, so I went to a thrift store to find something. I didn’t find a thing with a lid, but I found a thing without a lid and a clear plastic tray that fit on top, which I’m thinking may actually be better, since lies flat on top and is easy to lift. I’ll probably use it for more seed-starting in the future.
Now for some pictures of the seeds that are soaking.
Musa velutina:
Musa aurantiaca:
Musa ochracea:
If you look, you can see the air bubbles attached to some of them, always right over the spot that was scarified. Have you ever seen something like that?
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Oh, by the way, the number of seeds I cited is the number I bought. There aren’t 50 Musa velutina seeds in the cup, for instance; it’s more like 40. A few of them are already in soil, and I gave some to Ryder, since he wants to grow that species. Ryder, if we both get fruit successfully, let’s swap some seeds! 
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Ooh, interesting! Apparently Blue Java has seeds when it’s pollinated, and is seedless when it isn’t. That’s a seedless banana cultivar I’ve been interested in anyway, because it’s fairly cold hardy (zone 8).
I’m very interested in talking to that person about getting some seeds if they still have some (or getting some later when they have more), but I can’t contact them because I’m not a member of that forum.
I WANT to be – I’ve tried about five times over the past year – but it never sends me a verification e-mail, so I can never sign in. (I’ve checked my spam folder every time. It never even arrives there.) I e-mailed using the “contact us” form to ask for help, and I got no response. I used a different e-mail address, and the same thing happened. I used a different browser, and the same thing happened. And so I remain locked out of it. 
Are any of you guys signed up for that forum and able to sign in? If so, could you try sending that person a PM and ask for their contact information so I can talk to them about getting seeds?
(Or if anyone has suggestions about how to be able to successfully sign up to and log into that forum myself, it would be even better . . . )
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Whoa, somebody mentioned on the second page of that thread that Namwah can produce seeds, too! I wonder if that’s the regular Namwah or the Dwarf Namwah? Dwarf Namwah is far more commonly grown, and I have a Dwarf Namwah.
Methinks I should try pollinating it with every seeded species I get flowers from . . .
He also mentioned Ae Ae, which is hardy to zone 8a. That’s one I seem to have overlooked in making my list of cold hardy seedless bananas I’d like to collect. It’s supposed to taste great. And the leaves are gorgeous. And there’s one on sale for $16 on Etsy . . .
Okay, fine, I broke down and bought it!
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Oh, my gosh, I think three of my Musa acuminata seeds have a ROOT! I see a little white line sticking out of three of them! That’s a ROOT!
Okay, those have to have been fresh seeds. Wow. If three are sprouting already, I am unbelievably stoked. I hereby declare that Amazon seller a seed source worth buying from.
For reference, those are all in the cup of seeds that I scarified, not the control group cup of seeds that I didn’t. So even with fresh seeds, scarification seems like it’s probably worth doing.
Wow. Roots already. Even if it’s in the species that seems least likely to be sufficiently cold hardy, I’ll take it.
(Dances a little jig!)
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Loving your excitement and resonating with it as I see my citrus seedings one by one poking their heads up and my rice too 
Ooh, that’s super exciting! Which citrus are you growing?
I’ve put almost all of the soaked seeds into soil now, and yes, some of those Musa acuminatas did have a root! I think I broke one, because the seed was so soft that it was easy to be clumsy with it . . . bummer. But the others with a root did great (I think there were five with a root), and I’m hoping that I’ll see some sprouts soon!
Man, I’m so excited about this. Musa acuminata wasn’t one I expected to want, but finding out that the seedless cultivars can sometimes be a tiny bit fertile changes things. Those are Musa acuminata, so if I can breed the cold hardy seedless ones with a fertile dwarf variety of the species . . . that could be a very easy path to success!
And if the seeds are already tiny and soft and easy to germinate, I mean, that’s two of my secondary goals accomplished already. If every generation is as easy to sprout as these have been, it’ll make landracing easy!
Oh, as to the soil I put them in indoors.
It’s pure coconut coir + Miracle Grow water crystals. I figure that’ll be light and fluffy and easy to keep the soil moisture constant, rather than overwatered or underwatered. I stuck them in tupperwares without holes in the bottom. When I use holes in the bottom, my plants always die. I think my dry air dries out the roots too quickly. So I’m experimenting and finding that mixing lots of water crystals into the soil keeps it evenly moist, not too wet at the bottom, so I can keep them in “pots” without holes.
I put most of my seeds in that mix. With my Musa acuminatas, because I have so many and I can always buy more from the same seller, I decided to run a science experiment. Some are in coco coir without water crystals, and some have urine poured into them, to see if a) that smells bad after a few days and I don’t want to do it again, and b) the plants grow better or worse with a bunch of fertilizer available right away. Given that these are banana seeds, I suspect high nitrogen fertilizer being available right away may be helpful.
My six categories of Musa acuminata seeds:
- Scarified and soaked, in coco coir.
- Scarified and soaked, in coco coir + water crystals.
- Scarified and soaked, in coco coir + water crystals + urine.
- Not scarified and soaked, in coco coir.
- Not scarified and soaked, in coco coir + water crystals.
- Not scarified and soaked, in coco coir + water crystals + urine.
If there’s a definite pattern in what works best or doesn’t, I’ll know to try that in germinating banana seeds in the future.
Yuzu and sudachi. They are supposed to to be hardy down to -12°C (that’s 10°F). I don’t know when I will put them in the ground but I am contemplating keeping them indoors for the first few Winters if I can (and if they survive that long!), just to minimise how many years I have to wait until I get the first fruit. And to give them a better chance of survival.
I resonate with the sadness of breaking seeds. I broke some while trying to remove the outer coat of the seeds, regrettably.
Sounds awesome.
Well! Here’s some more good news!
Takeway: Yep, I can probably breed all the species I have together. Musa acuminata is the least closely related to the others, but they can probably still cross with it. It just might be more difficult.
Meanwhile, all the short wild species I’ve chosen are among the most drought tolerant? SWEET!
I mean sure, they probably wouldn’t fruit if I couldn’t irrigate them, but if they could stay alive and come back in a future year, they might fruit in a future year. That gives me a lot of hope that a worst-case scenario would be possible for an established perennial to recover from.
I’ve got two bananas I’m growing out in the yard (FL zone 9): Dwarf Cavendish (Musa acuminata) and Mekong Giant (Musa itinerans) (“Growing to 15′-20′ tall in colder climates, this plant can reach 40′, with a 20″ diameter, in warmer climates.”). The Mekong Giant is supposed to be extremely cold hardy. However, we’ve recently had two overnight hard freezes (first lasted four nights), and while the Dwarf Cavendish is possibly still alive, the Mekong Giant is looking…sad. Well, they’re both sad, and leafless, and brown, but…at least the Cavendish has a little bit of green deep down on top still.
Anyways…They were both transplanted from pots, but the Mekong Giant had only been in the ground a month or so. So maybe that’s why it failed so much harder. Even before the freeze, I felt like the Cavendish was growing slowly; it could be that I don’t fertilize at all, and my yard isn’t the most fertile of places. But if I ever do get fruits, I could send some seeds to you if you want.
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Ooh! Yes, I’d love that! If you ever get more pups than you want, pups would be nice, too.
Banana plants really want a lot of fertilizer, and they grow faster with it. From what I understand, in the tropics, it’s common to grow a circle of banana plants with a compost pile in the middle that never gets emptied! The banana plants around it will gobble it all down and grow quickly.
My plan is to pour urine near one of my banana plants every day, because it’s free high nitrogen fertilizer. I’ll probably go in a cycle from one to the next to the next as they grow. Bananas want high-nitrogen fertilizer; potassium and phosphorus are far less important to them. So as far as I can tell, urine is the perfect composition of fertilizer for them.
If you don’t want to use that, there are plenty of other good options that are high in nitrogen. Grass clippings and food scraps are good choices. Unless you’re planning to give them loads of nitrogen, I wouldn’t recommend mulching them with autumn leaves, wood chips, or cardboard, because those are carbon sources that tie up nitrogen while they’re breaking down. They’re good sources of potassium and phosphorus, so they’re great for most fruit trees, but bananas (which are not a tree, they’re a very unusual herb) need nitrogen.
My guess would be that your Dwarf Cavendish will do fine, since it’s supposed to be hardy to zone 9, and you’re in zone 9. It may die back to the roots, but it will probably resprout in spring. I don’t know about the Musa itinerans, but it seems likely it will grow back, too. If they don’t, it will probably be because their roots were so small when the freeze hit. If you buy new pups and try again in spring, they will likely have the root system to survive.
This is all theory based on reading what other people have said, of course. My personal experience is still very low indeed! (Laugh.)
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Well, I just learned something surprising from somebody who grows a Musa basjoo!
Apparently they don’t have seeds. And they aren’t grown from seeds. They’re always cloned. That implies the whole species is sterile.
They do make fruit, which means they have to be parthenocarpic. The fruit is edible, but apparently very small, quite tart, and not very tasty. (Clearly the solution here is to mash them with something sweet, like honey or something, and make fruit leather out of them. I bet that’d be great.)
As far as I know, no one has successfully managed to cross a Musa basjoo with anything, and many people have tried, because that cold hardiness is so desirable.
I was assuming Musa basjoo was a whole species, but now I’m starting to suspect that all the ones in gardens right now are the same clone. Which . . . sure sounds like it’s a dead end for breeding. On the other hand, apparently it can fruit after a few years in zone 6 (and I’m in zone 7) without any protection in winter, so it’s probably worth having anyway.
Especially since, if it happens to flower at the same time as something else, attempting a cross would be a big fat “Why not?”
So yeah, I’m disappointed to hear that Musa basjoo probably isn’t great for breeding. But it’s fine to have it in my garden anyway.
I just saw a video today about a guy in Ohio who has Musa Basjoo that overwinters - - actually I think on that acuminata seed link. That’s interesting and yes, a little disappointing 
Having all this information in this thread sure makes it easier to plan a banana breeding program
I’m glad! That’s exactly why I thought it would be a good idea to share what I’ve learned. I would love it if a bunch of us are doing this same project! I bet there’ll be amazing synthesis that way.
I have to say I never considered bananas until this thread. One species or another are popular in landscaping here in a remote area of the zone 6b mountains although I can’t recall anyone ever having one at our farm or even talking about them. I am starting to wonder what they’re growing around here.
Emily have you seen this seed vendor in based Ohio, with a pretty substantial banana list? I note that they have one listed, Musa yunnanensis, with hardiness to zone 5 that are not on your list earlier in the thread: Banana Seeds in retail packets for the home gardener
Edit: also their Musa sikkimensis hookeri
If it’s zone 6b, my guess would be that it’s either Musa basjoo, Musa sikkimensis, or in the Ensete genus. Of course, I could be wrong, and if so, I’d love to know what they are!
Yeah, I’ve looked at that seed vendor, but I’m hesitant because of how expensive those seeds are. $5 for 5 seeds is an awful lot, especially when the germination rate can be 10% or lower (so I’d probably need to buy at least fifteen). I also don’t know how old the seeds are, and that’s a concern, because the seeds I bought from Ouriques Farm (which were about the same price per seed) have looked the oldest and least likely to germinate successfully to me. Their Musa velutina seeds were actually marked as being from 2018, which doesn’t bode well for seeds that are hard to germinate already. That’s why I went and bought more Musa velutina seeds from Seeds and Smiles. I’m not sure I can count on the expensive ones I purchased for that species.
I’m starting to suspect that cheaper costs per seed tend to equal quicker inventory rotation, which means fresher seeds, which means seeds that are more likely to germinate.
Therefore, cheaper likely equals higher quality. Ironically.
If I could be certain the seeds were very fresh, like only a few months old, then yes, I’d gladly pay that price for them!