Am I Doing Landrace Gardening wrong by Using Urine?

Am I babying my plants by making them dependent on my Urine (Or even Humanure)?

Or quite the Opposite because My Gut Bacteria is now able to communicate with the soil via Properly Composting my Dookie (Cuz Poop contains Gut Bacteria)?
Thus creating an epic Feedback Loop, where my plants (Via how Bacteria can change/affect DNA) adjust their genetics to meet my Gut Bacteria’s Preferences?

Could my plants be taught by my gut bacteria to Increase the Nutrients I often lack?
Has anyone studied this? Could this be another Unexplored Pillar to Optimal health?

I have the Humanure Handbook but I don’t remember if Jo Jenkins Touched on this. I also remember Matt Powers Suggesting this could be what is happening.

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If you have a steady supply of urine that would otherwise go to waste, and no reason to believe you will be unable to use urine to help your crops grow in the future, then I see no issues with using the resources you have on hand. Growers here vary widely in how intensive their cultivation style is (even the same grower will often treat different crops and different spaces to different levels of inputs).
Manure from any source tends to have its own peculiar mineral balance (which can vary widely depending on what the animals are eating). If you keep applying the same nutrient inputs for many years to the same soil and remove the same subset of nutrients through crops or leaching/run off then you can steadily make the soil more imbalanced over time (this is one reason I love fallowing land as often as possible). So I doubt your gut microbes via humanure could teach your crops directly, maybe only to adapt to the nutrient imbalances in your diet (which could magnify the problem in your diet over time). Local food cultures often took generations of observing people dying or thriving to figure out how to compensate for imbalances in the local soil minerals.

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That makes me think, if you leave bare soil, won’t nature just fill the void with what you don’t want?

Hmm… More reason to eat a Diverse Diet, that way Nutrients you Poop out are also Diverse. I’ve also heard from Farmers that poop from herbivores make the best manure, as opposed to poop from Carnivores. Hence why people use Chicken/Rabbit Poop to fertilize their Gardens (Also Chickens aren’t fully herbivore either, Learned that from Perma Pastures Farm YouTube Channel)

All this is making me think hmm… me basically eating a herbivore diet already, does that mean I would make more higher quality Humanure? Also if %80 of my diet is from food I grew, I’m sure that would also contribute positively.

Interesting Point! Tho I think Permaculture solves a lot of these issues. Also I remember Elaine Inghram said that there is no soil that lacks all the mineral needed for plant life, so unless we run out of rocks, we just have to get Bacteria & Fungi to make those minerals bio-Available. Which is possible via Feeding & Protecting the soil.

Also Curious do you do No-Till, Some Till, or something else? I was thinking of doing tilling to develop landrace Survival seeds, that would thrive almost anywhere. Then taking those same genetics and cross pollinate that landrace with my No-Till Garden.

Or also doing Tilling to See what cool Edible plants the Soil Seed bank offers so I can save those seeds. I think that’s a good way to Find more Brassicas, Lambsquaters & Amaranth Diversity seeds since they so commonly Pop up when tilled.

Herbivores that have relatively free range of diverse plants tend to balance out the local mineral imbalances. Those kept confined and forced to get by on whatever humans offer them not so much (which often leads to health issues in the animals). I dont think you can generalise whether animal manure or plant biomass is more balanced/better.

Some pockets of land have really weird natural soil chemistry (eg high levels of heavy metals) and are not easy for humans or livestock to adapt to. My local area has places with really high magnesium and low calcium that is so bad cattle will break their legs just walking around. My own soil is only somewhat imbalanced this way. Crops that naturally grow on high calcium soils (even prickly pear cacti) just sit there refusing to grow (unless they are next to imported gravel, or a slab of concrete, or applied imported minerals). No matter how crazy the local geology something usually grows, but it might be nothing more than a thin film of lichens that cannot support complex ecology.

I fallow with a mixture of persistent perennial crops plus whatever natural weed species decide they want to grow. Goats graze this if it gets too thick. This is just a low energy version of how I let weeds grow to a manageable size among my crops as a kind of volunteer green manure. I hoe to manage that competition, without deluding myself that I can ever “eliminate” the weeds (in less tropical climates maybe this is possible, but not here). I am pretty sure if I did “eliminate” any weeds my soil would be worse off for it in the long run. Weeds that dominate are usually the species capable of the highest rate of photosynthesis (barring nasty tricks like strong allelopathy or fire promotion). I don’t dig/till, but mostly because my soil is heavy cracking clay that only gets worse when you disturb it. My approach is coincidentally similar to Joseph Lofthouse (though he needs to irrigate in the high desert, and I am not doing any commercial food production).

Maybe permaculture in another century will start to grapple with the challenge of imbalanced local soils (or people will simply abandon those areas to nature as was often the case before industrialisation). Steve Solmon I believe talks about people who grow a large percentage of their food on minerally imbalanced soil who end up with serious health complications like dental degradation. A highly plant based diet has been more challenging to make nutritionally complete ever since humans shifted to agriculture, but as always the devil is in the details. Every plant has its own hazards and challenges. Just failing to transmit proper cultural practices along with new crops can often causes disasters. The introduction of maize into southern europe caused epidemics of deadly B vitamin deficiencies since nobody taught them how to nixtamalise it. Likewise the mass production of soybeans in the USA in the 20th century led to raw soybean flour being added to countless processed foods since it was so cheap and abundant, causing all sorts of health problems that people in Asia figured out how to avoid millennia ago.
Whether you till or not depends on a lot of factors. It doesnt have to be a universal solution. Some people till when they create a new bed for crops that benefit the most from it, then coast along on the improved aeration through successively less finicky crops until eventually they need to repeat the cycle. It all comes down to how much tilling you can and want to do versus the rewards.

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I notice that most corn based products currently sold in the usa do not receive nixtimalization. It seems like another pellagra disaster in the making.

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Funnily often the first sign of B vitamin deficiencies are psychiatric/mental function disorders. Some highly processed foods have synthetic B vitamins added but I doubt it compensates for what is missing.

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I had a feeling, It’s just what I heard from a lot of Farmers. That also begs the question would a healthy Diverse plant based diet generate better humanure?

But it is a start, Life supports life.

Hmm… The mineral content is also important. Maybe Rockdust will help although I haven’t done my research on it to say.

Yikes, I never even heard of Nixtamalization. Just looked it up so thank you for teaching me something new! (Now I understand why Instant Corn Flour has Limewater as an Ingredient).

Does this also apply to sweet corn? Does this also apply if you only eat non-Nixtamalized corn as your primary food source? Like if we eat diverse foods from other crops and trow in a little of Nixtamalized Cron, we would probably be fine if it’s not the only thing we eat?

Interesting, which corn based products skip the nixtimalization process? Aside from the Corn Flour I eat from the Grocery Store.

I’ve Noticed very similar results in my soils here in the Forest edges of Suburbs.

Let’s say you continue tilling cuz that’s your method, and you also Landrace your Garlics. Won’t you eventually breed/select for a Garlic that is easy to regardless of the soil Condition/Compaction?
Or am I stupid and might as well just take care of soil instead since it’s easier and faster to achieve same thing?

That is very fascinating. Hmm maybe the connection to the soil plays a part in helping Garlic adapt to your conditions. I’ve learned from other people on this forum about how Bacteria and Fungi can actually change the DNA of the plants themselves so maybe this is what happens? Or could it be that your Garlic made a beneficial connection with the soil Mycorrhizae?

Just searched what epigenetic changes are, very interesting. That kind of flips the idea of Landrace Gardening then does it? If celluar changes are able to happen with actual change to the DNA, then this just shows we have more to learn. Your Garden/Herilooms kind of show you go by fine with out Landracing them (Although I’m sure it would only help).

Respect but thank you for sharing your experience! There is probably scientific evidence for what is going on, it’s just science hasn’t proven it yet. (Or we haven’t discovered a study to prove it)

I originally wondered about this myself. Then it occurred to me that, DUH, anywhere I live, I will always have plenty of human urine from myself.

As long as you have a system for using humanure and urine that doesn’t require outside inputs (such as electricity), it’s always available from you personally. So why not breed crops that feed you, and then you feed them, and then they feed you, and then you feed them? Seems like a great cycle to adapt crops to, to me!

This seems especially important with humanure, since it would otherwise be a dangerous, disease-spreading problem. Knowing how to use it safely, without spreading disease, is beneficial to all the humans in a community, simply as a way to get rid of it.

I love the permaculture principle “the problem is the solution.” Humanure seems like a very apt example of that.

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No need to hold back on your theories.

Plants in healthy conditions upregulate production, and that carries on epigenetically to progeny. Plants also repackage endophytes from their environment into the seed, so if they grew in healthier soil, their seeds will sprout with a healthier entourage.

As for garlic, clones show variations and genetic edits over successive generations. After 200 years, your garlics may have acquired beneficial adaptations.

So you’re observations are validated.

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In 1909, American agricultural scientist Franklin Hiram King embarked on a journey to Asia. Having been chief of the Division of Soil Management in the USDA Bureau of Soils from 1902 to 1904, King was concerned about the United State’s rapidly deteriorating soil health. He wasn’t alone. The 19th and 20th centuries were marked by an increasing demand for food from the growing populations in Europe and America, along with decreasing soil productivity. But in Asia, the situation was starkly different. Chinese farmers grew their crops on the same land year after year, but their soil never seemed to lose its fertility.

King called the farming approach he observed in Asia “permanent agriculture,” emphasizing the fact that the soils remained fertile over thousands of years. :wink:

He hoped to learn how farmers there were able to keep soil healthy and productive over the long term.

If King’s ideas had taken hold, the U.S. might have been farming sustainably throughout the entire last century.

He returned to Madison, where he devoted the last seven years of his life to summarizing earlier findings and conducting further research in agricultural physics, including the ventilation of farm buildings. Three of his seven books were written during that period, the best known of which is Farmers of Forty Centuries, or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea, and Japan, which recounted his investigations into what would now be called organic farming or sustainable agriculture during a nine-month tour of Asia in 1909.

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I’m guessing “night soil” was probably a huge part of what kept their land fertile. A better practice is humanure composting, which won’t spread disease (unlike night soil). It really is essential to return everything to the soil if you want to have a sustainable closed-loop system.

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That is a most definite yes!

Huh, I just realized “The Problem is the Solution” Applies to perfectly to Landrace Gardening as well. Like damn, the 2 are almost inseparable, they blend together so perfectly. For example Racoons break down corn stalks? Landrace Gardening selects for sturdier stalks and so on.

I’m wondering what Epigenetics my Urine & Humanure would be contributing to the seeds? Could it be that my gut bacteria gets a chance to interact with my plants in a Epigenetic way, through humanure? Which would in turn produce more resilient plants & Seeds. Can Seeds grown in good soil, adapt to poor soils? Will the good Epigenetics be enough?

Would this apply to other clones as well? Like Mulberry, Apple, Pear, Fig Cuttings/Graftings?
What about Grafting or Root Cutting Annuals like Squash?

Thank You for the Valuable Info!

Very Much Agreed, The Humanure Handbook had lots of good info on it. Also did Joe Jenkins YouTube Channel. Heck some seeds are even designed to germinate after going through a stomach, I’m wondering how you could do that safely since composting it for a year would kill the seeds too.

Also would Growing Squash/Melons out of the Humanure Compost be Practical or Smart? We do know they require lots of Nutrients and Keeping Plant roots in soil only contributes to better soil right?

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I figure you could safely grow cucurbits out of a humanure compost pile that hasn’t finished killing all the pathogenic bacteria yet, just as long as you’re careful not to eat any leaves or the rinds of any fruits. Root crops or leaf crops, ha ha ha, no.

You could also use a banana circle around a humanure compost pile that you never stop adding to, so it’s always hot on top and in the middle. Obviously bananas would be great for that, but you could probably grow other fruiting perennials around the edges as well. I’ve theorized that that might be a creative way to both rid yourself of humanure in a permanent location and also grow some fruiting perennials that need more heat in the winter than your zone provides.

Could you maybe use that to grow citrus (which is evergreen and fruits in the winter, so it’s particularly tricky to push the zone with) outside its usual zone?

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5 posts were split to a new topic: Pushing the Zone, with Perennials