I lived in a dark place.
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Thanks for the update. I have some of those āobligate outcrossingā seeds and was curious about their story.
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Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction
Iāve struggled over the past couple days with the dilemma of should I or shouldnāt I reply to this. What exactly is the high road here?
Iāve wrestled with a similar decision for the past couple months. One in regards to speaking up and bringing to light this very issue. Would it be causing harm or good?
It is good. Being forthcoming and honest is a good thing. Saving others from experiencing the pain I have experienced is a good thing. Stopping the spread of deceit is a good thing.
Here are the facts. I was not made aware of your career long choices and back history. Nowhere until this YouTube video was it mentioned. In the Fall of last year I saw minutes 9 through 14 of this ā¦
One should safely be able to assume that the guy who is touting himself as an organic gardening guru is not one in the same as the guy who has that resume. To be told the information was contained in old published journals and I should have been more astute? Absolutely an insult.
Here is where I live. For a couple years I was even walking distance from Dr. Steingraberās childhood porch. I could give specific and personal examples of people,land,water,animals, plants,entire systems,etc that have been devastated. I pride myself in being firmly and unwaveringly against these harmful corporations and products which you have spent your career developing. This is how the conversation would have gone if honesty had been a factorā¦
āThe Roundup/ pesticide / bioweapons guy has some organic advice for youā
āNo Thank Youā
The difference is not debatable. I would not have participated in this program or donated to it had the truth not been withheld in an attempt to deliberately mislead and deceive.
Creating a general distrust in society is not admirable nor helpful. I should not have been deliberately misled. I find it exceptionally troubling that the err of that is not apparent. It absolutely is to me. In fact if the moral implications are to remain in disregard there are specific laws against it.
-The following paragraph is copied and pasted from the above resource for easy viewing in order to demonstrate why itās not okay to leave out that your entire career was spent doing the opposite of what you now tell people in order to further a narrative that utilizes grants and donations-
āIn larceny by trick cases, the false representation may involve false statements about what will be done with donated funds. However, it also can include the non-disclosure of facts that would influence a donorās decision whether or not to donate to the charity.ā
A few other definitions because I donāt understand how itās okay to claim
A vow of poverty does not include living it up in a solitary existence on acres of farmland whilst soliciting donations and enjoying International travels. Again, not my concern if you choose to take one or not. Doesnāt feel okay to claim youāve taken a vow if you are not living by it. What about all those who truly do live in poverty either by honoring true vows or via no choice? If itās not right itāsā¦
Two Truths And A Lie
As far as the āgardening adviceā ? Itās not any new or helpful information. Simply paraphrasing the works of others and adding in misdirection and misinformation.
Two truths and a lie. It makes it feel believable. I wanted to believe and I tried. All around just bad genetics to start with, I had to spend time sorting through them, the yield was almost nil. How is that helpful to society? Hereās the truth.
Beginning with a wide GOOD genetic base is a good thing and could be a desired way to begin a breeding project.
True
Local adaption begins to occur once plants experience being grown in local conditions. Ie - Landrace. Epigenetic changes also can occur as a result of environmental factors and behavioral conditioning. (what this program refers to as ācoddlingā)
True
Everything can just mix together and it will be fine. No need to isolate or stabilize. Itāll all be good and desirable.
Lie
I was fooled in the beginning by not having a wide enough scope. Why was isolation not common practice in other times of history? They didnāt have the diverse varieties and additionally had substantially larger plots of land they farmed and used for food production. Naturally isolated and stabilized due to those differing circumstances.
If all the genetics get mixed up you might have something good or not. The yield is not dependable and the quality is highly varied. Not beneficial advice to dole out for those who wish to grow an abundance for a food source, ie the targeted audience.
In regards to breeding adviceā¦ yet with the twist of no clear path for stabilization, whatās the point? Itāll remain highly variable and unreliable. Beginning with questionable genetics? How is that beneficial?
I grew in this methodology for two seasons and documented it on this site. Even though my words were kind and I tried to be uplifting, the pictures speak for themselves. I was obviously naive and the claims arenāt true.
In Regards To Future Endeavors
Iāve voiced my concerns privately. It is alarming the lack of empathy I have been met with. Iām not a stone thrower by any means. Totally would be none of my business if I met you in a store or in the street. Agreed. In this context? Yes. Itās a pretty big deal. I canāt speak for anyone else but myself. Itās not right. It bothers me because it should.
In all the other videos, posts, etc beginning years ago until now those few minutes and this post are the only mention of your decades long continuing career choices to remain in these industries.
I was presented with this guy and the opportunity to donate for time with the ācelebrityā? Your words.
Turns out this guy is responsible for multiple genocides. I just canāt express how insane this all is. Talk about burying the lead.
I was misled and as a result have experienced extreme duress. If you still canāt understand why itās misleading, wrong, and harmful, that is a really big problem and most assuredly needs to be addressed.
What can be done for those of us who were harmed from this deliberate false portrayal? That is a question which is yet to be answered.
Do I believe this was just a mistake made or an overlooked detail? No. It was done deliberately with forethought and an intention to deceive. The few moments from that interview would be the only mention of it if not for this post. Letās pretend it is just an unknowingly mistaken blunder. Now you know.
Absolutely from here on out you need to be honest and let people decide if participating would cause a moral dilemma for them. Not only is it the right thing to do, it is a legal obligation given this context.
What should be done? Again not my call. Personally, an apology at this point in time would even be more of an insult. To believe for even a second you thought it was okay to not lead with your personal list of Crimes Against Humanity while selling a narrative of how joyful you are?
Iām honestly still not sure how to process this. I feel gross. My words were used to further this deception. Iām still just blown away by the lack of remorse and empathy. Itās not right to falsely portray yourself in such a manner. Morally or legally.
My seed can not be returned as it was mixed into this yearās grexes. I sent it before I learned of all the horrific left out details. My little monetary donation was not that much but it bothers me that I gave it. Using my words and good energy to unknowingly further deceive and cause harm to others? That is immeasurably without recompense.
Tis Better To Admit Youāve Been Fooled Than Remain Foolish
I was being led to believe I was helping create better ways and developing solutions as a community. Turned out one of the sources for the problems we collectively share was leading the charge and accepting donations. I disavow any words or actions in support of this deceptive madness.
Yāall tis better to admit youāve been fooled than remain foolish. I sincerely apologize if I helped lead anyone astray with any of my words via past posts or engagement. Iām truly sorry. I hope this post helps to make right the bit I helped send off skelter. Truth truly is stranger than fiction. I thought it was just a discussion board on an organic seed saving forum and didnāt realize I would be contributing to devastating systems. Ignorance is no excuse either. I do not support the production or use of any harmful products or actions.
Kicking dust off the sandals now. Seems the only appropriate and rational response. This whole experienceā¦Truly bizarre and horrifying. Absolutely not my jam.
@BohemianHerbology Iām puzzled by one point in what you wrote. You say that Joseph should have been more upfront, etc.; Iāll leave all that aside. But when you said that
How do you see yourself as having contributed to devastating systems? Whatever Joseph might have done in regards to herbicides, etc. is in the past; he isnāt doing it anymore. So donating seeds to GtS isnāt devastating anything. Not that you have to go on doing so if you donāt want to.
As far as how effective the ālandraceā style of plant breeding might be (which is separate from Josephās past actions): I do think some people are using it in a naive way at times. Mark Reed has discussed this on the forum. But I think the core of the method is sound.
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Hi Julia, I deeply value your courage and integrity and thoroughness in providing this information and context. In fact, youāve inspired me, because I did grant writing for an organization last year, they did things I couldnāt agree with, and to this day I feel similarly as you do, for supporting something that I would not have, had I known all the facts. I still havenāt addressed it publicly, but youāre nudging me that way 
I also deeply value Josephās courage and integrity in owning a mistake, and then building something better. That takes so much courage to say, 'I was wrong, I didnāt know, and now Iām working to reverse my past actions. ā It inspired me to also admit Iād spent years on the wrong path a few years ago, then to use that energy and change course.
There are so so so so many people who are cogs in the machines of corporate industry, making a paycheck, doing what theyāre told, and never are brave enough to come out the other side. They continue their entire lives doing things they detest. I wish for all of them, that we embrace the change, the admission of regret and being wrong, and support more people in admitting mistakes and moving on.
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As I have followed his work online for a couple of years, Joseph Lofthouse has been public that his professional history included work that he considers in conflict with his ethics. Heās chosen to share more detail recently, but the new detail is consistent with past statements.
Itās unfortunate that your exposure to his work didnāt include that information before now. Itās a leap to conclude that it has been hidden.
I will put forward that itās a discourtesy to conflate Mr. Lofthouseās disavowed career history with his moral character, and itās also very discourteous to diminish the efforts of the other people also responsible for the work of Going to Seed.
There are many people working here. Culturally I would say GtS is very much about making oneās own informed decisions in the garden, based on our own experiences in our local climates.
I myself have never felt like this is an organization that encourages uncritical use of any methodology. I hope you are able to find another community that is a better fit.
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Deceit- the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
Obviously you have found some things that bother you. But Iām not sure where Joseph has been deceiving. I found this forum via Joseph posting on permies and OSSI forums about the book and then about Goingtoseed.
Iāve been following Josephās posts for quite a while. Nothing that I have found out in the recent interviews etc shocked me. He has always said things about not liking what was being done with his work back then, etc. About working for big ag and hating how terrible it all looked while he was learning there was other options and ways of farming and gardening. He grew up in a bubble of follow the rules, do as I say, do it this way, this is how itās done.
To me finding out more details just filled in what I had mostly assumed along the lines of. He grew up. He worked. He found out things he didnāt agree with and changed course. Know better, do better. Then he found out things he didnāt agree with in that job. And changed course. Know better, do better.
Iām unsure what story you would approve of. He is a human and life is complicated. We can only work with what weāve got.
If the only people allowed to do good things have to prove they are perfect then weāre all screwed.
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Yes, I think those of us who interacted with Joseph Lofthouse on earlier web platforms (homegrowngoodness, etc.) were well aware that he had participated in some chemistry research that he was now unhappy about.
I think it is perfectly valid to criticize Josephās actions and ideas, both then and now; he isnāt some kind of all-perfect guru. But I donāt think it is valid to say that because he once did something wrong (particular kinds of chemical research) he must still be doing so/that GtS is somehow a front for this kind of work.
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I would never participate in an organization that is centered around a guru like personality cult.
Going to Seed doesnāt seem to be that way, and in my opinion Joseph is a valuable contributor who has shared a lot of ideas and insights that have inspired me.
There are numerous other people in the GTS leadership and community that I have found inspiring.
Josephās past is upsetting to me as well, but not because I was expecting him to be a perfect person. I just find it sad that those are the kind of career and opportunities that were and are still offered to young people who excel academically.
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I did things in my 20s which I sincerely hope no one, especially my children, ever find out. Itās not deceptive, Iām just not that person anymore. Iāll extend that grace to anyone. Iām very thankful that Iām not a prisoner of my past, and that joy and hope are possibilities. For all of us.
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Ok, just one more thing and then I will have said my say. This statement seems very true to me, Joseph seems to actually take a backseat until he has some specific input.
Also, Iāll repeat a sentiment I shared on another thread, that as a group which is growing and becoming able to make an impact on a larger scale, we have to be on guard against attempts to spread dissention, and recognize those events for what they are.
I know, that was two more things.
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I hope youāll enjoy growing these and share your observations! I am growing them for a second year, and had so much fun with their diversity last year.
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Iām sorry that you feel deceived, Julia. Joseph has owned his mistakes and built a better life, focused on educating others - and personally I deeply respect his willingness to share his story am grateful to him for the work he does today.
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Professor porcupine:
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I think all crops, animals, fungi, microbes, insects, and trees are worth domesticating.
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I have not tried mixing pollen from many species of squash. I grow many species next to each other. Very rarely a natural hybrid shows up and makes seeds, which are rarely viable.
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I am in favor of many techniques that people might use to make inter-specific hybrids. I donāt do them myself, because they take a lot of time, and attention that i canāt offer at my life-stage .
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I work on domesticating solanum physalifolium. The small fruits donāt seem poisonous, nor sweet. Fruit colors include orange and purple. Sometimes, in the spring i eat fruits that survived the winter outside
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I donāt think at all about interspecies grafting. It has potential for people with zeal for the work.
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I thew away a whole yearās worth of cantaloupe seed, after introducing a poisonous melon, cause itās much easier to avoid introducing non-desired traits than to select against them in later generations.
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Professor porcupine:
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I have not tried Kiwano x muskmelon. Crosses generally work better if both parent species have the same number of chromosomes. In this case, 2n=24 and 2n=14, therefore I would not expect them to cross.
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I believe that someone could select potato berries for non-poisonous fruits. I tasted a berry one time that was aromatic, very sweet, and super-emetic. We could select against solanines with chemistry or chromatography, to avoid poisoning ourselves.
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I would select for early maturing fruits by harvesting the first fruits to ripen.
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I havenāt tried freezing pollen. Other ways to shift pollen availability include manipulating day-length, growing populations in a greenhouse vs open field, storing propagules in the fridge, staggering planting dates, etc.
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I have not tried any interspecies brassica hybrids. Mostly because of unreliable spring rains before my irrigation system becomes active. Also brassicas grown at my place tend towards bitterness due to the arid ecosystem.
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Professor Porcupine:
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Adaptation agriculture requires that the plants make seeds. If the plants fail to make seeds in every generation, then the project cannot move forward. With runner beans, i had 0% success for like 5 years in a row, until I finally found a landrace variety from Holly Dumont of Gilroy California in which about 20% of the plants made seeds. Then I could develop a locally-adapted, and consistently reliable variety. I can grow watermelons here, but they have never learned to thrive.
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Parsnips and European cow parsnips (Heracleum lanatum) have the same number of chromosomes, and are closely related, therefore crosses between them might be straight-forward. I look up chromosome numbers in Carol Deppeās Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties, 2nd edition.
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I like growing several generation of plants in a single year. I have done that by growing in my bedroom window, sending them to a greenhouse in a warm climate overwinter, using triple layers of glazing/protection in and unheated greenhouse. I have induced species to flower quicker by manipulating day-length.
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I have not tried mentor grafting, due to my lack of attention and zeal. I love to watch people working on these types of projects.
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I have only bred carrots for root characteristics. Although, I inadvertently selected for large robust leaves. We could select for other traits in other parts of the plant. Due to the highly localized nature of pollination, i figure that if we weed the queen anneās lace out of the actual carrot patch, thatās good enough for backyard plant breeders.
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If I want to select for the flavor of a root, I taste the root. I can easily dig a root to cut off a piece for testing, or cut off the side of it without digging. Depending on species, the flavors might flow through the whole plant, or get concentrated in one tissue or another. I wouldnāt try to asses the mouth feel of a root by tasting the leaves.
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Landrace gardening exists on a spectrum that varies between heirloom-preservation of inbred varieties all the way through a range of diversity into wide crosses and even creating new species. Each gardener gets to select for themselves, where they feel most comfortable in that range, in order to meet their own unique needs in regards to productivity, reliability, and philosophical leanings. They might make a different choice for every crop. For example, I like my yellow crookneck, sweet peppers, sweet corn, and popcorn to lean towards stable, fairly inbred varieties.
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Patate
I would love if people would do side-by-side comparisons between store-bought varieties and their 3rd year or later locally-adapted, genetically-diverse varieties.
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Julia BohemianHerbology
I intend to fully live by this meme published in Landrace Gardening,
And by this into which it has morphed.
A big part of my transformation involved dropping the black/white, holy/evil, either/or, all-or-nothing, control-and-dominate, morally superior, change the world thinking, that my family, church, and society installed into me as a child.
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I re-read the One-Straw Revolution recently and there was a lot of quarreling with whatās wrong in the world. A bit too much in my opinion. I think it was a judicious choice to remove that sort of stuff from your book. Relatedly, Iām incapable of watching a documentary where the first half is typically about whatās being destroyed on the planet.
Maybe sharing inspiring stories is whatās gonna change peopleās behavior, rather than telling them everything thatās wrong.
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Good idea!
Maybe once we have more gardening seasons as a community we can fund some of those experiments.
I would suggest maybe comparing with ancestors of the adapted population when applicable.
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