Common Vetch (Vicia sativa) x Fava Beans (Vicia faba)?

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

Has anyone tried crossing Vicia sativa x Vicia faba?
I’m also wondering if we can Domesticate Vicia sativa for improved edibility as well.
For Vicia sativa, the Leaves & tendrils are edible raw or cooked, the young tender pods also edible & the seeds inside edible cooked after boiling but are too hard to digest (but the vanilla flavor intrigues me as maybe it’s more worth grinding these up into a powder & make vanilla powder?). According to forager sam thayer, “the taste has a hint of vanilla”!?

However theFerns mentions the leaves are only edible when cooked (Doesn’t say anything about eating them raw).

Vicia sativa - Useful Temperate Plants

Forager Samuel Thayer takes a general approach to Vicia species, the raw or cooked edibility of the leaves probably applies to Vicia sativa also. I also haven’t looked into the anti-nutrients of Vicia sativa seeds but boiling should probably deactivate them (Like how is done with Lentils - altho some people also eat Fava Beans raw no?). However I have this feeling that first nicking the seeds & letting them soak for 2 days may help make seeds more palatable after boiling.

There also exist many different subspecies of the Vicia sativa Complex.
2 subspecies that stand out to be as having good domestication potential is

1. Bigpod/seed Vetch (Vicia sativa subsp. macrocarpa) : Apparently makes much larger pods or seeds?
   

   

2. Subterranean Vetch (Vicia sativa subsp. amphicarpa) : Apparently makes seeds underground or close to the ground??? However V. sativa subsp. amphicarpa has different chromosome number compared to all other V. sativa subspecies, this might make a real hybridization barrier.
   

   

But there also exist others
I have this one
3) Blackpod Vetch (Vicia sativa subsp. nigra) : The pods are black and appear to be the most common weedy subspecies found in North America. Pods & seeds are tiny!

4. Brownpod Vetch (Vicia sativa subsp. sativa) : This one seems to be the type species with brown pods, I think it’s the one used for fodder but the seeds are slightly hairy/fuzzy? However the USDA photo seeds are yellow but don’t look fuzzy?
   
   

There are also many other subspecies but these were the ones that interested me in having some potential.

Now on to the bigger question, is Vicia faba cross compatible with Vicia sativa (& Vice versa)?
Well both species are very closely related within the Vicia super genus (V. faba belongs to section Faba & V. sativa belongs to section Sativa - but both of these sections are sister to each other) both have the same chromosome number.

My thinking is, since both the Faba & Sativa sections/subsection are pretty much sister to each other & have the same chromosome number, it might be really possible to cross them both (especially with pollen mixing/mentor pollination techniques).

They also both have square stems, flowers very similar (not in racemes) so maybe grafting can break down hybridization barriers (especially when grafted as a seedling).

Researchers have also tried crossing Vicia faba with the Vicia narbonensis complex species, they are incompatible because different chromosome numbers & bigger phylogenetic distance, belonging to different subgenera.
https://www.biologydiscussion.com/vegetable-breeding/faba-bean-origin-breeding-goals-and-variety-india/68726

But what do you think? Does Vicia sativa has potential? Especially if we can increase seed size & make the seedcoat much softer? The wild Middle-Eastern Pea (Pisum fulvum - aka Lathyrus fulvus) has very hard seedcoats so it gives me hope that something within the V. sativa complex may eventually develop softer seedcoats like that of Garden Pea (Pisum sativum - aka Lathyrus oleraceus).

[KadenceLunemann]

I have seed for crown vetch. The seed is small, like leafy mustard seed sized. And hairy vetch, which the seed is bigger but certainly not bean sized. More like coated carrot seed sized maybe?

I have no idea if/how the cross would work, but my first thought was the seeds are small.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@KadenceLunemann

I have seed for crown vetch. The seed is small, like leafy mustard seed sized.

Be careful! Crown Vetch is not a true Vetch (Vicia) species and is poisonous. That is if by Crown Vetch you are refering to Securigera varia (Crownvetch).
You can tell because crownvetch lack any tendril on the leaf tips.

Plus from the top view, flowers are aranged in a circular pattern (hence the crown part of the name).

@KadenceLunemann

And hairy vetch, which the seed is bigger but certainly not bean sized. More like coated carrot seed sized maybe?

By hairy vetch, do you mean Vicia villosa (Winter/Hairy Vetch)? I know it has a tendril but it’s flowers are in racemes.

@KadenceLunemann

I have no idea if/how the cross would work, but my first thought was the seeds are small.

Vicia villosa will very likely not cross with Fava Beans (Vicia sativa), Lentils (Vicia lens), Common Vetch (Vicia sativa) and especially not with Crown Vetch Securigera varia (Completely different tribe & supertribe!).

Seeds are small but so are Lentils, however with lentils you pull up the entire plant to winnow & separate seeds out. Would you even be able to do the same with Vicia sativa? but if you could cross it with Vicia faba maybe the seed size could increase to something more substantial (maybe garden pea size at least).

[YrtheArts (Brent Hopkins)]

There’s also Giant Vetch ( V. gigantea) that grows in the PNW. It has large pea like pods with large pea like seeds. I read somewhere that indigenous peoples used them as a food source. I intended to cultivate it when i lived in the PNW but never acquired seed before I ended up moving. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to discuss vetch and the associated cultural practices with any indigenous people. The cultural aspect of food processing practices is often very significant.

I would suspect that seeds of these vetch species should be soaked and the water poured off (perhaps water should be poured off during cooking as well) before trying to eat them, as the entire family Fabacea tends to contain antinutrients and or toxins in the seeds to discourage herbivory. (Even the common bean it’s best to soak and pour off the water, although obviously it won’t kill you if you skip that step.) I definitely wouldn’t recommend trying to eat random vetches without prior research.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@YrtheArts

There’s also Giant Vetch ( V. gigantea) that grows in the PNW. It has large pea like pods with large pea like seeds. I read somewhere that indigenous peoples used them as a food source.

Interesting, that species is in the Subgenus/Section Nigricans and is the most distant species from all other Vicia species. It kind of occupies an inbetween position between Vicia & Lathyrus. I doubt it will Cross with Lentils, Fava Beans, Common Vetch or any other species. All other species within the Vicia nigricans clade have all been merged under Vicia nigricans and are considered synonyms. Corcea is a seperate Section/Subgenus - but it is the 2nd in line phylogenetically.

However in terms of edibility, I found a theferns page on it

Vicia nigricans - Useful Temperate Plants

I also found this excellent Blog on it

Giant Vetch, A “sketchy vetch-pea” or a tasty edible?

So it does seem like another species worth learning more about & maybe domesticating.

@YrtheArts

I would suspect that seeds of these vetch species should be soaked and the water poured off (perhaps water should be poured off during cooking as well) before trying to eat them,

I agree! The Fabaceae has so many tricky ways of poisoning so it is very important to know how to properly prepare foods (But it’s also extremely rewarding & many legumes are Superfoods that taste incredible & super nutritious)! I think if your diet lacks beans/legumes, it’s a crap diet (- that’s how important legumes/beans are nutritionally).

But I strongly suspect some of the more harder seedcoat types need a longer pre-soak phase, or maybe even boiling germinated seeds is better! I know a lot of toxicity is taken out when the seedlings are germinating (in general a lot of legumes seeds work this way, such as Lablab Beans). But if you also boil the germinated seeds + discard soaking water, I think it’s wayyy more safer.

However Lupine beans are very different, I bought grocery store Lupinus mutabilis seeds (Tarwi/Chochos/Andean Lupine) and tried to soak them like Lupinus albus (White Lupine), and oh man after much boiling soaking & reboiling, they still taste bitter. It’s simply not worth it (even tho some people have figured it out). Personally Lupine beans are soso but Lupinus albus taste nice & is meaty (I would grow it if it’s super easy to grow & yields well).

@YrtheArts

I definitely wouldn’t recommend trying to eat random vetches without prior research.

100% Agree! Just remember that Fava Beans & Lentils are also Vetches (Now regognized as Vicia spp.).