Cucurbita Moschata Landrace in Mississippi

If I was looking at this project from a food payoff perspective in the short term, I would see this as an absurd idea considering the time input.

I think that you and I have had similar squash projects this year in terms of scale, parameters, and yield. Certainly this quoted statement would be an apt description of my project too.

I believe there will be a payoff to these approaches in the longer term, but I wish I had more pumpkins in hand going into the winter. I appreciate you sharing your results.

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I don’t mind paying my dues to reap greater rewards later. It’s almost as if I believe I can work harder now so I can slack off later. I am probably fooling myself though.

I am curious about your squash project. Do you mind sharing the details?

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We narrowly avoided a freeze this week as the cold front came through. It got 33 degrees where I live this week.

I am currently traveling and just picked these 2 up from a seed store that is trying to get rid of their Halloween sale leftovers nobody wants. I got them for $2 each.

For the Moschata, I chose the one that had the smallest ribs. I prefer smoother rind for easier peeling. If it tastes good and has good texture, I will save seeds and plant out next spring. I will limit the number of plants I grow from this original seed-stock just in case it turns out to give stringy offspring.

For the green one, I guess this is a Mixta. The store lady said they had some like this that were twice this size but had sold them already. I think the flesh will be yellow and might be a turn off for me. I prefer orange flesh. I have no idea if it will taste good. If it does, I will try to make a mixta/Moschata cross next spring.

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Lucky. I got three nights below freezing.

That green one looks like a Green striped Cushaw Squash to me. It’s been labeled a mixta, moschata and even a pepo depending in which synonyms are used in your area.

Cucurbita argyrosperma

Used a pie squash in the Appalachian areas I think.

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Thanks for the video Peter. The cooking aspect is a weak point for me. I am glad to discover her channel.

Also, I picked that pumpkin up in NE Alabama in a little town called Ider. That is technically in the south western portion of Appalachia. At least in Alabama, pumpkin pie or pumpkin eating in general is not common. Most people who buy pumpkin after Halloween are giving it to their livestock as a dewormer.

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I wouldn’t pay that much attention what some staple variety tastes like. Besides those species where fruits can be poisonous or extremely unpleasant, but even they can be integrated over time. There are probably more to gain by letting them cross. Taste can be selected in coming generations.

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Thank you for asking. I have started a few individual threads about squash projects, but they are due for a season-end update. However, I do not have a thread about my moschata project.

In brief, I planted hundreds of squash seeds, and wound up with 60-70 adult vines. Most of them stalled throughout the summer, and even though they often resumed growth around September, it was not soon enough to get fruit.

For a few reasons including a flood in 2022 that covered some traditional garden areas and personal health issues, I have focused on replacing the traditional “lawn” area around the house with vegetables and herbs. I have planted along about a quarter mile of driveway. This means that a lot of my garden areas have only been established in the last year or two. Furthermore, I’m not able to operate a tiller and I gardened by myself this year. I generally use cardboard occultizing, without wood chips, to prepare beds.

Some of my plantings look very much like I’ve seen yours: a grid of squash vines out into an area that doesn’t otherwise look like it’s been established as a garden (yet).

My C. pepo and C. argyosperma squash did the best, but performance was still less than 50 squash harvested total. The majority were patty pan summer squash, less than 20 fruit are from types I planned to save seeds from. One C. maxima candy roaster type made two mature fruit on different vines, but the fruit was relatively small.

Some thoughts that I have about my project:

  • The argyrosperma and pepo varieities I grew are historically known to do well here, and in the case of the patty pan squash, I’ve grown them before here and it was not a surprise they did among the best.
  • Rainfall was unusually low this year, running 10-15 inches behind 2022 which was not a banner year for rainfall either.
  • I have multispecies animal pressure, I think rabbits or something else was enjoying foliage.
  • My varieties, whether producing fruit or not, did very well against powdery mildew, which is a big endemic disease. They did well against insects.
  • I had a lot of flowers all season, the squash I harvested had every prospect of getting naturally crossed with something else that handed disease and insects well, even if it didn’t fruit.
  • A lot of the soil I’m planting into has never grown squash or vegetables before. I was initially happy because it seemed like squash plants were growing pretty well. But possibly there are some limits when rainfall isn’t good and the soil hasn’t even been turned over by a shovel in many places (it depended on how well I was doing or how fast I was going on a particular day)

Grass fights back
The last thought I want to break out on its own because it has come up before here. I do think that grass suppresses some plants including squash vines in a way that reflects some kind of biological or chemical process. I cannot demonstrate it, but I feel like the weaker and farther grass is from squash, the better it is for the squash vine.

When I establish a planting out in a grassy area, my current approach is to cover about a 3x3 foot section (1 square meter) with about two layers of cardboard, and then set some rocks on top. Depending on the season, I leave it this way for 3-6 months.

I believe that is about enough space to keep the grass from working against the squash vines, but I’m sure it’s true that larger would definitely be better. As I write this, I’m thinking: could I not at least double that space? I think it would work better if I did :smiley:

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I have had the same thoughts. I use a push mower with a bagger and have been bagging up grass clippings and mulching around my plants. “The obstacle is the way.”

Originally I started doing that because the summer got scorching hot that the root zone maybe was too hot to produce female flowers. Then the weed suppression benefit won me over for long term use.

At the plant base extending 6 inches to a couple feet variably, the grass is kept at bay. However, strong Moschatas will extend roots very far away from the base at shallow depths. Therefore, they are facing root competition at maybe a month old onwards. And of course, those with the strength and opportunity to send roots at the node, face immediate grass competition.

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I processed all of this today. This is my fall harvest.

I had 5 elite fruit that I saved separately from the rest. They had too many viable seeds and would throw off the ratios.

The seeds from the rest of the fruits are all mixed together and drying on 2 plates.

About half the fruit did not have viable seeds.

This was about 100 days from planting the seed. There was a drought during most of the period. These were not fertilized. The lows have been too low for quite some time for any serious growth.

This harvest was basically worthless for food value.

The resulting seeds are definitely cross pollinated.

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In cucurbits, the bitterness is some dominant genetics — super hard to weed out, if at all possible. I would do exactly as you as well.

I may keep a bland tasting fruit if it otherwise checks all boxes. Like, in my pepo mix I am after - among other traits - bicolors, Zephyr-like colorations. If I have a fruit that tastes average only but has that coloration, I might keep it. If it tastes “bad” on the other hand, either as young or at full maturity, it has to go.

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Hard selection is the way to go with cucurbits! Much better to “miss” one year than trying to get rid of bad genetics in a crop like that. Plants are huge, they take space, who has all that space for several years, only to get garbage back.

(Well, technically you never “miss” a thing, you learn something…)

That’s why I said besides. Meaning was that if those (poisonous) are used they are integrated separetely. The ones that aren’t poisonous, but just aren’t to your taste I don’t see a problem integrating them directly. They should blend in quite fast. Anything you start with is going to have bad and good qualities, some are more tangible than others. To me point of landrace is to collect as many genes as possible and only start selecting once those genes have had the change to be part of the mix. Maybe one variety has bland taste, but has also disease resistance or resistance to drought etc.

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The way I see it a population has limited amount of genes and the more you take in, the more you will eliminate. So you might not end up with any more bad traits, but instead will have more good traits because you allowed maxinum amount of genes to your population. To me it seems a little pointless to eliminate one variety before allowing it to mix because it wasn’t as tasty, but still grow dozens of varieties from seed that you don’t have any idea how they taste like. I would give everything an equal change. Maybe you didn’t like that fruit as much because it was picked too early? I understand if you don’t want poisonous or extremely unpleasant tasting to your population, but if it’s just bland/average tasting it shouldn’t affect much in the population as whole.

That was more of a general point for the topic. @anon14613632 here had dozens of moschata varieties that he didn’t know how they tasted like. Even after one year those are likely to be present in the population some way, whether he liked their taste or not. Having one more wouldn’t make much more difference. Adding argyrosperma to the population would likely introduce lot’s of genes that aren’t present or common in moschata and having bland taste is quite a small trade off for that. With genetically diverse population there is always going to be unwanted consequences or traits that appear no matter how careful you are. If you get them in early you can select them out early.

My obsession with Moschata has finally subsided. It started in 2021.

I’ve ate more pumpkin pie than what is good for me.

Now I will neglect the future Moschata growouts, significantly reducing the work input. I will weed much less and pretty much just put the seeds in the ground before the rain.

I have a significant diversity of seeds from this years harvest and hope it will succeed.

I now have a blank slate of obsession. I wonder what comes next.

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The Long Island cheese looking pumpkin I bought on sale after Halloween tastes bland. The texture and flesh content is good though. I decided to cut it up in about 20 pieces and stick it under a pile of Swiss chard. This is a little experiment to see if something comes of this later in the year. If I am not pleased with growth by the time I get ready to seed my Moschatas, I will probably plant something like a special melon here.

Since it’s not passing my standards fully, I am giving it once more chance to prove its worth, throwing it to the wolves so to speak. It must show strength on its own or it will die.

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The two at the bottom look like Autumn Frost, and the one at the top looks like Musqee de Provence

I haven’t bought those varieties. You might be referring to store bought pumpkin images.

Yes, the store bought pumpkins from the Amish Roadside stand photo

Oh, they all failed my test except one. They just didn’t have the culinary greatness needed. The one that did pass had a decent flavor, but its rind was a bit of a fight to take off. It was also a little too firm. I am curious to see how it grows for me so I kept the best one.