How do seed vaults store seeds that can't go dormant?

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@UnicornEmily

You can absolutely freeze dry seeds and expect them to germinate. I keep an archive of some of all my best seeds from my garden from every year in the freezer.

Wait hold up, Freeze dry vs putting in the freezer dry seeds are different things right? Doesn’t freezedrying remove all the moisture out of a seed? If I recall Correctly, when you freeze dry something, it can be stored without a freezer for a long time.

@UnicornEmily

I figure it’s similar in principle to a regular computer backup – you want that archive, in case you lose valuable traits or have unusual weather one year in a way that shifts the population in a way you find nonoptimal.

That’s exactly how I thought of it. Like being able to hit save on a “Seed” File .

@UnicornEmily

P.S. I’m not sure if you can store dried tropical seeds and expect them to germinate. That seems a lot more iffy, since the plants die below freezing temperatures under normal conditions.

But can you store them freeze dried at room temperature. Once they are watered, their contents reconstitute & become just like the day your freeze dried them. But does that translate to seed viability?

@Lauren

I think we severely underestimate the adaptability of plants and seeds.

I agree, Why do we underestimate them in the first place? Seeds delicate but also quite adaptable, I think every gardener has to ask themselves if they are doing to much. At what point do you neglect vs care to achieve landrace goals? I think it’s case by case specific, like in Phaseolus vulgaris for example where hybrids need to be prioritized & cared for, which allows for adaptation to happen.

@Lauren

There have been times in our climate history when global temperatures were as much as 20 degrees from our current norm–that means in some periods the tropics would have seen consistent ice and snow, while in other times there would have been no snow at all. And yet the temperate and tropical plants recovered.

Huh, Is that how the Tropical Plant Pawpaw (Asimina triloba) Adapted to survive in such cold climates? If so why can’t we landrace other crops to do the same thing? Every species has a stretch limit but can we extend the limit? Cold hardy tamarillo have been bred, for example. Ivan Michurin has bred many crops to be cold hardy too!

@Lauren

There have been times when because of vulcanism or solar cycles there was very little sun for years, all across the globe. But plants survived.

Yea, If I recall correctly, it was called the year without a summer. If so, is this what YellowStone will repeat when it erupts?

@Lauren

There is evidence of tropical rainforests at the north pole, and the remnants of aluvial glaciers in the tropics. Our world is in constant upheaval, and the plants are designed for this. They’ve seen it all before.

EPIC! This makes Climate change super exciting because if those cold areas get warmed up, just think about how many cool new undiscovered plants are waiting in the soil seed bank for temperature & soil conditions to improve! Imagine if a Red or Blue Pawpaw exists in the Artic under the soil seed bank?

@JinTX

This is what I do, but I do it with each generation due to my crazy weather. Each growing season is different with different selection pressures.

Smart! This is why I never want to plant all my seeds. I’d ideally love to have small amounts of long-term storage for seeds like 10-30 years, followed by some that are 5 years old & so on.
I also don’t think it’s just your area that will have crazy climatic cycles as other areas will too! I think it’s smart for everyone regardless of where they live.

Season having different selection pressures means you must not allow nature to select too Hard in 1 direction right? Saving back ups is how you don’t allow this to happen if I understand it correctly?

@JinTX

It is much more difficult to adapt to colder climates than warmer climates.

Yea, Plants find every nook & cranny to do so. For example some plants

1. Are annuals & go to seed before frost happens but remain viable in soil seed bank or inside frost protected rotting fruit all winter long. (Black Nightshade, Volunteer Tomatoes, Melons, Squash, Gallinsoga, Amaranth, etc).
2. Top growth is annual but root growth is perennial. (Hardy Passionfruit, Some Wild Squash, Potato, Red Hailstone (Thladiantha dubia), Runner Beans, Kudzu, etc).
3. Plants convert to sugar which acts as an anti-freeze in their leaves. (Most Brassicaceae (Mustard Family) plants do this when frost happens. This is why they taste sweeter in winter like some kale, Brussle sprouts, wintercress, etc).
4. Plants Lignify/Grow-Woody their branches & Go Dormant so they can survive frost without harm, but also drop leaves (Most Cold Hardy deciduous Trees, Shurbs & Brambles do this).
5. Evergreen plants that still keep their leaves and have “harden” their leaves somehow? (Laurelcherry, Pines, Spruces, Firs, Holly, Some Silverberries, Cold Hardy Cactus, etc)
6. Get saved by garden enthusiasts in a Greenhouse, by making good fruit

[JinTX (J. Youngman)]

@VeggieSavage

Season having different selection pressures means you must not allow nature to select too Hard in 1 direction right? Saving back ups is how you don’t allow this to happen if I understand it correctly?

You could just grow season to season but you could potentially lose some useful genetics along the way.

You still have the selection pressures of both seasons.
If you go from a super wet year to a super dry year using 100% the next generation some of those wet year plants will die off. If you do this too many times you have adapted the population but reduced genetic diversity.
Basically you’ve created a “variety” instead of a landrace. ← but that is a super simplified use of those terms, I’m not saying there’s a right or wrong way to create a landrace

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@JinTX

Basically you’ve created a “variety” instead of a landrace. ← but that is a super simplified use of those terms, I’m not saying there’s a right or wrong way to create a landrace

So basically it’s a good idea to still keep some diversity even if your environment currently selects against it. Altho it’s not like a vairiety will forget right? Like even if all the Wet tolerant plants died because of the 10 years of drought conditions, you plants will still adapt again right?

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Ha ha, possible miscommunication there. I meant you can freeze “dry seeds,” not that you can “freeze dry” seeds. Thanks for pointing out there were two interpretations of that phrase! I didn’t realize that!

I have no idea if you can “freeze dry” wet seeds and still have them be viable. I strongly suspect the answer is no. But if that is possible, it would be interesting!

@JinTX You bring up a good point: Joseph Lofthouse’s strategy of deliberately keeping in old genetics in order to favor genetic diversity may be the largest difference between his definition of landrace and the traditional definition (a highly locally adapted variety that might be highly variable or might be very narrow genetically).

[JinTX (J. Youngman)]

I would predict you would end up with a “variety” (meaning relatively little genetic diversity due to the repeated selection pressures on the single reproducing population which resulted in similar characteristics) which would be adapted to survive in both wet and dry seasons.

I see a landrace as trying to straddle the line between a grex and a variety.

It should have enough genetic diversity that is can still adapt well and survive unexpected conditions, but the population also shares common traits that allow the majority to survive and thrive in the conditions it has been selected for.

So yeah I think in a landrace you will always need to introduce new genetics and also re-introduce old genetics.
I’m not a math person but there is probably an ideal ratio of what to add for the optimum genetic health of the population. (Like 85% current landrace seed, 10% old landrace seed, 5% new seed)

[Lauren (Lauren Ritz)]

@VeggieSavage

Yea, If I recall correctly, it was called the year without a summer. If so, is this what YellowStone will repeat when it erupts?

The year without a summer was nothing. I’m talking decades, at best. Our current “climate crisis” isn’t even a blip. The earth will shrug it off like a hangnail.

Yellowstone may create anither year without a summer, but probably not much more. I’m talking dozens of volcanoes blowing at once, over an extended period of time.

[JinTX (J. Youngman)]

@VeggieSavage I wouldn’t say it was nothing because it did have major consequences for humans around the world. But the little ice age was a small event when looking at Earths larger cycles.
We could easily see a similar cooling event begin within some of our lifetimes.

[Lauren (Lauren Ritz)]

@UnicornEmily

I have no idea if you can “freeze dry” wet seeds and still have them be viable. I strongly suspect the answer is no. But if that is possible, it would be interesting!

Anybody have a freeze dryer who wants to test this? I suspect that the structure of totally dry seeds would handle freezing better than wet seeds. Whether they would be viable is another question.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

It would be fascinating to have someone test that. (I don’t have a freeze dryer, or I would.)

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@UnicornEmily

I have no idea if you can “freeze dry” wet seeds and still have them be viable. I strongly suspect the answer is no. But if that is possible, it would be interesting!

I hope to find a proper answer. Are there freeze drying communities forums to ask this question tho?

@JinTX

So yeah I think in a landrace you will always need to introduce new genetics and also re-introduce old genetics.

So basically trade ever so often to gather new genetics into your landrace, That makes GoingToSeed super useful!

@JinTX

I’m not a math person but there is probably an ideal ratio of what to add for the optimum genetic health of the population. (Like 85% current landrace seed, 10% old landrace seed, 5% new seed)

Yea that’s about the ranges I was aiming for, altho for at the start more new seed. Also another question if you’re keeping populations seperate on purpose like Sweet Corn vs Popcorn, could they act as the 5% “New” Seeds when grid goes down & there is no one to trade with? Or if you keep bush & pole beans seperate but want to introduce a lil of new genetic flow between them & then reselect back for pole or bush?

@Lauren

Yellowstone may create anither year without a summer, but probably not much more. I’m talking dozens of volcanoes blowing at once, over an extended period of time.

Yea, Won’t Yellowstone blowing off trigger other volcanoes too? Won’t the california earthquakes wake up yellowstone thus triggering more earthquakes and volcanoes?

Also are volcanoes just pimples for the earth?

@JinTX

I wouldn’t say it was nothing because it did have major consequences for humans around the world.

Yea major for us but nothing to the rest of the world. Altho It’s wise to prepare reguardless.

@JinTX

But the little ice age was a small event when looking at Earths larger cycles.
We could easily see a similar cooling event begin within some of our lifetimes.

So them ice ages are like century wide Seasons? If we really break it down, these HUGE Cycles are like seasons the whole earth goes though right?

@UnicornEmily

It would be fascinating to have someone test that. (I don’t have a freeze dryer, or I would.)

Yea same, I would too! Need to ask someone who has a freeze dryer,. You know anyone in the forums who does?

[JinTX (J. Youngman)]

@VeggieSavage

if you’re keeping populations seperate on purpose like Sweet Corn vs Popcorn, could they act as the 5% “New” Seeds when grid goes down & there is no one to trade with? Or if you keep bush & pole beans seperate but want to introduce a lil of new genetic flow between them & then reselect back for pole or bush?

That bean scenario would work, with the corn you may be degrading the popping or flavor/texture but if you were desperate and worried you had reached a dangerously low genetic diversity it could be a good decision.
Ideally you would still have neighbors and other people in the region to trade with.

@VeggieSavage

Yea major for us but nothing to the rest of the world. Altho It’s wise to prepare reguardless.

@VeggieSavage

So them ice ages are like century wide Seasons? If we really break it down, these HUGE Cycles are like seasons the whole earth goes though right?

The year without a summer was a year within what is called “the little ice age”. It wasn’t an actual ice age, it was a period of low solar activity and increased volcanic activity which caused cooling.
It was pretty major for the northern hemisphere and southeast Asia. I suspect there were probably worldwide reactions.

“Climate and Culture Change in North America” by Foster, is a great book on the known effects on North America

“Global Crisis” by Geoffrey Parker, is a good one to see the effects and results of historically colder periods on different societies around the world.
Global Crisis is FULL of information, but it starts to feel extremely boring due to the repetition of similar events that resulted, even in different societies. It is written like a textbook.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@JinTX

Ideally you would still have neighbors and other people in the region to trade with.

Yea, I don’t know how else you would survive without one hahah . It’s hard to do everything on your own.

@JinTX

Global Crisis is FULL of information, but it starts to feel extremely boring due to the repetition of similar events that result in different societies. It is written like a textbook.

Thanks for the heads up. I might skim through it until it interests me.

I’m super crurious about how Climate Change will impact Russia. I wonder if the north pole could melt & faciliate trade between canada, America & Russia by boat. Heard people say florida would either freeze or go under water, yikes so much diversity gonna be gone. Hopefully someone makes an Ark of all them good florida seeds

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Yes, the passageway through Arctic ice, once it’s completely melted, is of great interest to many shipping companies that are already preparing to take advantage of that.

It would sure be better if the ice caps didn’t melt, but . . . when you get lemons, make lemonade, right?

[Lary (Larry Morris)]

I read where in Russia where some of the defrosting is taking place during the summer they found a baby elephant and this stuff in his stomach and there were seeds in his stomach and they actually got them to grow after eons

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

That’s pretty amazing. What species were they?

I seem to recall I heard somewhere that ancient wheat kernels found in a pharaoh’s tomb after thousands of years were able to sprout. And I know the Gete Okosomin squash seeds were found in a buried pot, hundreds of years later, and they were able to get them to grow into a whole new variety, with some old, lost traits. Really nifty.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Lary

I read where in Russia where some of the defrosting is taking place during the summer they found a baby elephant and this stuff in his stomach and there were seeds in his stomach and they actually got them to grow after eons

WOW! Did you happen to know what seeds they were? Did they discover a new species? Can you link where you found this info?

@UnicornEmily

And I know the Gete Okosomin squash seeds were found in a buried pot, hundreds of years later, and they were able to get them to grow into a whole new variety, with some old, lost traits. Really nifty.

Awesome! That just shows me how Resilient seeds are, especially when stored with their fruit! Quick question, if tomato fruits are frozen, will the seeds inside be viable? The Fruit protects seeds against frost right?

[Lary (Larry Morris)]

They were some kind of flower that hasn’t been seen on Earth for thousands of years

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Lary

They were some kind of flower that hasn’t been seen on Earth for thousands of years.

Wow! So extinct species not so extinct after all hahaha . I really do hope to know what specific flower that was, with the scientific name. I was hoping to look it up.

Wait, but don’t soil seedbanks also contain seeds of thought to be extinct species? So many cool new weeds show up when you till the soil, it makes me really wanna see what cool species I can discover!

Also does anartica have soil right? Meaning that soil contains seeds right? Meaning we can dig out that soil & try to see if the seeds present will grow right? just something to think about

[Lary (Larry Morris)]

Burro Mountains popcorn
This beautiful and ancient white popcorn produces two to three, 4- to 6- inch long ears. A unique appearance and delicious flavor make this a standout popcorn. It was originally found in a pottery container dated to be 600 to 1,000 years old. This pot was found in the Burro Mountains of Grant County, New Mexico, in the 1960s/1970s by Frank Tatsch, who originally grew it out. The popcorn is believed to be descended from an ancient highland popcorn, called Palomero Tolequero, indigenous to Mexico. This Palomero popcorn is nearly extinct and was used in Aztec rain and war ceremonies. It is one of the ancestors to almost all of our popcorn in the United States. This strain grown in the Burro Mountains centuries ago was once considered extinct until its discovery in the pot.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

It would be pretty amazing if the thawing of Antarctica (which is not a good thing) winds up with the silver lining of uncovering a ton of viable seeds of previously-thought-extinct species.