Yea now that’s EPIC! So far it only seems like Baker Creek sells it. But besides the point, this proved how long corn seeds could last & still be viable (That or Clay Pots are SUPER EFFECTIVE at preserving seed viability).
Perhaps we just need to use Claypots and we can preserve all our seeds .
It’s things like this that make me question what we’ve been told about seed viability & expatriation dates.
Ouch, must kind of suck to be forgotten & abandoned when better corn varieties came around. BUT… Is it actually better or did we loose valuable genes in the process of abandoning this old corn for 600 to 1000 years old? It begs the question how did & why did it get abandoned in the first place. The fact that someone put those seeds in a clay pot shows it had value! Could the original grower have known their seeds would last that long?
Dang… I just realized we must be causing so many extinctions by landracing out the genetics we don’t want . I’m thinking how many heirloom varieties went extinct. At some point species are just natures varieties, if a plant doesn’t introgress it’s genetics into the next generation, it goes extinct.
This begs the question, can palomero popcorn truly have gone extinct it’s it’s genetics have been passed down to other corn varieties? So many species have ancient introgressions for which the original species no longer exists separately. American Chestnut being a good example of a current soon to be ancient introgression of it’s genes into the Asian/European chestnuts.
I’m glad it was discovered. Speaking of which does the Burro Mountain Popcorn taste any better than what we have now? I’ve the pictures & it has a slightly different shape to the
modern popcorn, interesting that shape difference allows it to pops, perhaps it even pops better than what we currently have in the modern popcorn varieties.
Cool and dry preserves the seeds and those clay pots buried under ground, or in caves, gave those perfect conditions.
Those varieties will always go “extinct” because you are only selecting for similar phenotype and the genetics will change with every generation. Natural selection will be applied.
When Baker Creek grows an heirloom variety from Texas in their Missouri plots they have changed a lot of the selection (weather, soil, pests, etc.)
Nice! I’m taking notes! Gonna build me some clay pots & store them underground for emergency seed storage.
, extinct or evolve? Which is it? Maybe they have a symbiosis. Still think it’s good to preserve genetic diversity in a seed gene bank tho, you never know when you’re gonna need those ancient genes again.
So it becomes a strain then? I know it’s hard to heirloom a Corn with isolation distances, but super easy to landrace it. 10 different plant varieties all cross pollinating could be enough genetic diversity especially when 1 diverse cob has more genetic diversity than 100 ACRES of Corn.
Heirloom & landrace are just different spectrums of the same thing, It’s up to the gardener in how far they want to go towards one way or the other.
I think a lot of the oldest seed pots they have found were also sealed with pitch.
We also have more options now, like sealing in a mylar bag with a moisture absorber.
I would recommend trying to seal whatever you use. And if using a container like a pot, turn it upside down so it creates an air trap and water cannot get in.
Extinction through evolution. We can’t go back but we can imitate what there used to be.
Mammoths are extinct, but with enough time and effort we could breed elephants to resemble them.
Absolutely.
Finding ancient seeds is a really special thing. Kind of a second chance, for us to re-introduce those genetics.
More modern heirloom lines are important genetic diversity also.
I think people just get stuck on keeping heirlooms ‘isolated & pure’ and forget they are still living organisms adapting to every potential input (or lack of input).
The amazing native bean reputedly found in a cave in New Mexico, in a clay pot sealed with pitch. When carbon dated, the tests showed it to be 1,500 years old! Long vines climb to 10’ and produce tasty pods. Beans are large and kidney-shaped, white with maroon mottling. Very rare collector’s bean.
I seem to recall reading someone on here mentioning they had some metal cans, tightly sealed, that they buried in the ground to store their archival seeds. They only dug them up once every two or three years, and it worked really well to keep the seeds preserved for long-term use. So you might try metal (probably less fragile, as long as it’s a metal that won’t rust), unless you prefer clay.
Nice, I’ll try both, turning it upside is good advise! As of right now, I put my seeds in Plastic bags with Oxygen absorbers inside a metal box. I guess that’s techically a mylar bag right? Cuz even with a mylar bag, you still put seeds inside plastic bags.
Interesting, Makes me wonder why Maclura pomifera is so huge & why it’s relative Maclura tricuspidata is small but sweet? Why do such big fruits exist without human breeding? It was theorized to be spread by mega-fauna & but Osage Orange fruits aren’t edible, only their seeds technically are but aren’t worth the effort. It’s like a species that should’ve gone extinct but didn’t.
Also wasn’t Avacado supposed to go extinct until humans discovered it? Are we the only animal that eats them? Feels like Avocado found a new species to spread it’s seeds, us.
Yea, I think it’s because they want true to type but cuttings & grafting will give you true to type even from F1 hybrids. The only way a seed to be true to type is to be heavily inbred or you as the garden broaden what true to type to you means.
Landrace gardening, is simply broadening what true to type means to us & our needs. For example, if you have a paste tomato landrace, you don’t care for color, just that it’s tasty & dry for making good pastes. That’s your true to type.
How does heirloom work for wild seeds? Of course it’s gonna breed true to type, because type is just the wild species itself. Another example is Dill or Caraway.
The real question is what does “True to Type” mean to you?
NO FLIPING WAY! That’s EPIC! What bean did they find? What species? Where can I read up about it?
I’m gonna make my beans seeds last that long too! It’s gonna make archiving these files fun & reliable!
Nice! Metal tends to stay cooler in the shade. Plus the ground/soil itself tends to stay cooler in summer & warmer in winter, the ultimate mediator. I’ve heard lots of incredible greenhouses were built underground to take advantage of this effect. I’m sure a metal box in a root cellar would work here too. I already use metal boxes for all my seeds. Rusting metal is my concern, I like clay pots, maybe put metal inside clay pots with plastic bag to cover the metal box while inside you have seeds in plastic bag with oxygen absorbers?
My only question, how long is too long with oxygen absorbers? Like can we over do it with oxygen absorbers?
Maclura pomifera is actually one of my favorite trees… I know, I’m weird.
It was most likely originally spread by the mega-fauna. The fruits are not edible to humans but many animals still eat them. Squirrels love them. Deer and cattle will also eat them. They can be a choking hazard for cows.
Native Americans used the tree to make bows. The names we use here are Horse Apple or Bois d’arc (also often spelled Bodark). The name Bois d’arc is french for bow wood.
Early settlers used it as a living fence for livestock which is why in the midwest they call it hedge apple.
It was one of the species planted in hedgerows to prevent erosion after the dust bowl.
It was used under old house foundations and it also made some of the best fence posts, because the wood doesn’t rot. There are 100 year old bodark fence posts still around today.
If I remember correctly, it is the hardest/densest wood native to North America.
Oklahoma even developed a thornless male selection for use as a landscape tree.
As for osage orange, there used to be a theory that it was spread by ground sloths (a large, extinct animal), but that has since been debunked as probably not accurate. It’s likely it was spread by a large animal, though.
Avocados had the same theory about being spread by ground sloths. I’m not sure if it was accurate in their case. Regardless, aren’t wild avocado fruits much smaller? Maybe if its ancestors were smaller, large animals like bears and deer would happily eat it.
@MarkReed Yeah, I think it was you I was thinking of! Very cool to have all the details of how you do it included in this thread.
I think the stories about 1,000-year-old seeds sprouting are accurate; but I think stories like that tend to be considered so newsworthy because it’s rare for seeds still to be viable after that long, so it’s special and exciting when it happens.
There have been a few documented, but those were germination under strictly controlled laboratory conditions. I think many of the others might be legitimate rescue of old seeds, but probably not thst old.
Oh, yes, that makes sense. “Strictly controlled laboratory conditions” can do a lot to give very old seeds that are barely still living the best possible chance of survival.
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. I’m thinking how many heirloom varieties went extinct. At some point species are just natures varieties, if a plant doesn’t introgress it’s genetics into the next generation, it goes extinct.
