That you would see then depending on how they have developed and what’s the forecast like. Like you said, the weather might be just too cool for anything to happen. Covering (with cloth) is more like keeping them alive through some slight frost between warmer weather. Hoop house helps a bit more, but even that is dependant on how warm it is. I would think you want them to make female flowers in september or possibly early october if weather forecast looks good for the coming weeks. It’s bit like with my survivor plot. Earlier this month situation looked a bit desperate, but now once they have made flowers and I have the forecast 15 days forward looking like they will get to develop under pretty much ideal conditions, they are already quite far along when, and if, they need help.
It’s apparently done when three nodes have developed, that is, three sets of true leaves. There may or may not be any flowers. If it does work at this relatively early stage it may work later.
Given all these thoughts, I was outside this morning and looked at the cucurbit sprouts, and thought, “. . . Why not?” I decided to transplant them all into my greenhouse. (It’d be pretty awesome if this means I wind up with fresh melons in December or January. 
)
Cucurbits don’t like being transplanted, but I’ve found in the past that they’re far more likely to be okay with it when they’re week-old-ish seedlings with big healthy cotyledons and no true leaves yet. About ten hours later, they look okay, so I think they’re all going to make it.
Transplanting will probably have set them back a little – transplant shock is a thing – but since the greenhouse stays above freezing all winter, I may be able to grow them through the winter in there. Here’s hoping!
I’m currently pondering whether a groundcover of cucurbits in the greenhouse may, in fact, be highly beneficial to my tropical perennials. Maybe they’ll be a layer of living mulch to keep the soil warmer at night, and a bit of extra thermal mass or insulation, on top of it? I’ll have to see how that experiment works. If I wind up being able to grow delicious melons all year round, well, obviously I’ll do that. 
I figure if I have the sprouts, and they’re unlikely to finish fruiting in time outside the greenhouse, I may as well see if this experiment will work!
I see, I do know some squash are short day like Lambsquaters & some quinoa. If I put a tarp that lets almost no light in for a day, I can trigger “Short days” Sooner so that it can flower. This 10 days for example is only for day neutral varieties of watermelons, melons, squahsh, ect?
I wonder why people eat green tomatoes cooked? Why not just let them ripen off vine? Not to be confused with fully ripe tomatoes that just happen to be green, I’m talking about unripe tomatoes that are green. It would make sense for them to be toxic given that black nightshade berries when unripe are toxic.
I actually never noticed the difference between vine ripened vs off vine ripened tomato. I was under the impression this was a myth for tomatoes specifically. I think even Epic Gardener’s YouTube Channel did a video about it. What do you think?
Would it have truly tasted better ripend on vine? I ask because if it truly doesn’t make a difference, than I’d rather harvest early & ripen indoors because the less time they spend outdoors where birds, bugs, disease, animals, Frost, ect can get at it, the more tomatoes I can actually keep & eat! Same should apply to squash & other cucurbits.
I see, just depends on the variety. I’d probably do the same if I have the Luxury of affording 30 days before frost arrives. I think the biggest factor is how hard the rind is & when it starts to loose it’s shininess, becoming kind of dull in the process. I really want to save seeds early even if I still have entire growing season ahead of me, just because of insurance. What if my plant dies but the immature fruit I harvested is still ripening indoors? That way I get the best of both worlds.
My only concern is the hormonal balance shift when you pick squash. Gardeners always say, the more you pick, the more they make. If I let the first squash fruit fully ripen, then I technically get less seeds because I get less fruit right? And what if I harvest 30 days after flower pollination when the rind is thickened & dull? Would it still trigger more female flowering or no?
Same story with Cucumbers, the more immature fruits you pick, the more female flower the plant trys to make. Does every cucurbit work this way? Does every other plant work this way too (Heard it does for peas & beans)?
Yea I’ve noticed that too, but they often change color when the fruits start to fall off due to improper pollination or lack of it. But those never have ripe seeds, they are often no bigger than the ovary at flowering time.
Banana cantaloupes!? WOAH! Just search it up, it’s like banana squash but for a melon. Did you save the seeds of the one that didn’t fully sweeten before frost? Do you think it would’ve sweeten indoors if picked a lil early? Did you plant the seeds from that fruit & did it mature faster?
Awesome! I’m glad it worked for you!
Yea, that right there is the bummer! but hey the 2 weeks to ripen can be well worth it.
I think it would, especially if it’s almost ripe. If not, I think it could at least get the fruits skin hard enough to ripen indoors for seed purposes. Probably those seeds would ripen even earlier next time you plant them.
Wait, even in fall the noon sun will still melt the plastic!?
Yea I think this is possible!
Not fully unwise, can you get the to vine root into a pot? I know squash especially roots along the ground, maybe you can burry part of the vine in a potting soil, cut off from mother plant when frost comes & bring in the plant inside.
Smart! I think it will, compost can still be hot even deep into winter. Why can’t we heat our homes with it?
Yea they look kind of non viable. I wonder if another week on the vine would’ve helped? Plus how long did you ripen the fruit indoors?
Amazing! If you keep doing this, you can get it down to 30 I bet! But 42 days off vine or 42 days on vine than immediately cut the same day?
Good point, why is Days to maturity a thing then? Perhaps is useful to know in a range? For most climates, Days to maturity isn’t gonna be off by no more than 5-10 days right?
Is there a way to encourage more female flowers for this purpose? I’ve heard they are daylight sensitive? or is just when the vine is big enough to afford female flowers? I’ve had a squash send female flowers when the entire plant was no bigger than 6 inches across.
Awesome! If they were small seedlings, transplanting them should be easy.
My experience has been quite oppostie to this. I’ve sucessfully transplanted LOTS of Squash easily! It just requires, timing (Evenings are BEST!) being very careful & if the soil the squash was growing in is easy to work with & not hard clay. I then mulch & water right after. I transplant in the evenings so They take well the next day. Mornings are 2nd best option but they miss out on the entire night to get established. Middle of SUNNY day transplants are the worst option, even cloudy days are fine but not fully hot sunny.
Depends, I’ve never noticed this cuz deer ate everything either way. But 1 plant did manage to get big enough before the deer discovered what it was. Now they know what to look for 
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Oh yes! I think it will be highly beneficial. Plus if for some reason there are “disease” issues, are they plants you even want to grow?
YES PLEASE! We are cheering you on! Please share how it goes! I’d want to this too!
I saved the seeds, yes, and they had normal germination. The jury is still out if they mature(d) faster, but the issue is that ALL of the banana cantaloupes seeded in May in my dry garden died, the germinated, grew, some of them produced small fruits, but all withered and died (all of my other cantaloupes died as well except one which produced a fruit before it did, it was not fully ripe, but I saved seeds anyway, hopefully viable).
The banana cantaloupes I planted in June in the dry garden survived, but are in bad shape/stunted, so hopefully they can catch up before frost comes.
The banana cantaloupes I planted last year were planted at the beginning of July, after earlier sowings did not germinate, I may have accidentally have done so at the best time to plant cantaloupes in my dry garden, I will monitor my June ones to see if they do better than last year’s July sown ones.
The bananaloupes vines in my compost-fed, watered garden do extremely well, no surprise there (those are the ones I do experiments on).
Maarten
The plastic doesn’t melt under my noonday sun, but the plants inside do. It can get over 150 degrees F in a hoop house if I don’t remove the plastic, easily.
And yes, that’s even during October. Our October daytime temperatures are 75-90 degrees F. That’s 10-20 degrees cooler than our midsummer temperatures, but it’s still much too hot to keep plants under plastic. If I keep them under plastic through the whole day, they will die.
This is actually true even during midwinter. Our daytime temperatures during a warm midwinter day are around 60-75 degrees. We have about 60 days in midwinter like that. You can go outside in a T-shirt and be perfectly comfortable.
Even during a cold midwinter day, it’s rarely lower than 40-50 degrees, and the greenhouse can get up to 120 if it’s sealed up during that time. So I open my greenhouse door almost every morning in winter to keep the plants inside from baking. I only refrain when it’s one of those rare days when the daytime temperatures are below freezing. We usually have around 10 days like that through the whole winter.
Our winter nighttime temperatures can vary anywhere from 7-40 degrees, so it’s usually below freezing at night. Because of that, our winter precipitation is usually snow if it comes at night and rain if it comes during the day. If it’s snow, it usually melts into water the next day.
We have a lot of freeze-thaw cycles, obviously.
In the gardening those short day varieties are outliers. Never run into any and probably you would have look for them.
I meant this as how they are naturally. The level of poisons in the domestic are fraction of what there is in some of the wilds. Although when you are eating green tomatoes, those generally are the ones that have already started ripening process and so the amount of the poisons is less. Those poisons are quite bitter so it would be quite hard to eat if you have something that has high levels.
Didn’t watch that, but what the tittle says is mostly true. It’s not as clear cut and you will see more variance if you are in a shorter cooler season climate. Like I said with squash, you can’t take a flower and ripen thet, right? It need certain maturity that tomatoes usually have 2-3 weeks before ripeness. And it’s not a exact moment were it ripens or doesn’t ripen. There is a period where they are neither and in if you try to ripen those it might try to ripen, but never really ripens. In red tomatoes those usually get to yellow/orange and similarly other lighter shade of the ripe colour. They don’t taste very good either, but can be used cooked. If the ripening process already has started and you let them ripen proberly, they will ripen just as well.
Variety has surprisingly little affect to ripening speed besides how well it’s accustomed to the weather. Choosing varieties that work in your climate and you should get fairly expected results no matter what variety.
If they have enough nutrients and water, they will continue producing as much as they can. Ofcourse one big summer squash takes energy to grow, but I doubt you will gain much by trying to optimize the harvesting because at some point the growth stops and ripening itself doesnt take energy of the plant. Maybe some water still? If you need seeds, I would just wait for ripeness even if takes some from the harvest. Personally for example in summer squash I’ll try to select for small mature fruit and that way the plants can more easily continue producing while still making seeds. I think one plant last year had 3 fruits for seed when most had only one, and some even stopped producing while making that seed fruit.
That’s one thing that happens. I don’t know if it’s from ripening or if it’s just dying. What I meant was fruits that have started to proberly develop, but then run into some problem that disrupts their growth which makes them try to ripen, but often before seeds are fully formed or most of the seeds are aborted.
This might hard to breed directly. The natural ripening of the fruits doesn’t have a wide spread. Most of the spread there is isn’t speed of the ripening per se, but how well that particul plant is adabted to the climate so you should get the same results by looking at general growth. Looking at the ripening from flowering has the danger that you accidentally choose for those that have fast ripening because of stress. That’s the biggest variance you will get besides differences in year to year weather. Choosing for the fastest from seed to ripe fruit should have more consistent results. Certainly it’s possible to have one fast even then that is making fast because of stress, but those would show it in stunted growth. If it’s one of the few, it could be good, but if there are better growing plants that aren’t that much behind, not so good.
I’ve grown long keep tomatoes and just before Frost I pick them and go ahead and let them ripen inside and it’s a slow process but they usually taste better than the store-bought ones that you buy
I’ve heard this is pretty common is Fig-Leaf Squash (Cucurbita ficifolia), especially the white seed forms of it. Good to know it’s quite rare, early plant breeders have done their homework!
Good to know! I haven’t worked with wild tomatoes, are they actually bitter thus poisonous? I was under the impression that all potato berries were poisonous but all tomato berries weren’t. I haven’t researched tomato berry poisons in fully ripe fruits, I genuinely thought it works exactly the same like Black Nightshade berries where only the fully ripe fruit is not poisonous.
Black nightshade berries may also ripen off the vine just like tomatoes. but fully ripe potato berries may still be poisonous even if they tasted sweet. Only way to know is with lab testing, which isn’t required for black nightshade berries.
Wait, so days to maturity can be thrown out the window? I was under the impression that variety makes a difference in ripening time.
Interesting, so at some point the fruit is just sitting their on the vine not doing much? I know the more you pick, the more you get via hormonal shift of the plant when all the immature fruits are picked. I was thinking getting the best of both worlds, where I have a 2-3 week on vine picked Zucchini for seeds as insurance incase a ground hog eats my plant, but still get to enjoy all the summer squashes throughout the rest of the growing season.
But what if your environment won’t allow waiting? Why take the risk of waiting when Frost, disease, animals, insects, mold, ect can all go wrong the longer it sits on the vine when you could’ve done the same thing at home where it’s safe from all that?
Interesting, does small fruit truly mean faster ripening? I’ve just heard stories of gardeners growing Zuchinni leaving it on door steps for neighbors because they’ve had so many from constantly picking. Why not just take a break & let them ripen on vine for seeds when it gets too much to harvest? Once you have had enough 2 week break, continue harvesting.
I remember some research paper where some more primitive south american variety had 10 000 (I can’t remember the scale, ppm?) of tomatine while some more domesticated had in tens or hundreds. So the diffrence can be huge. Remember having some cherries (suppose they tend to have the most on average) tasting like putting your tongue on battery. That said, ripening is a process and they don’t just disappaer one moment, but slowly disappaer which is why when using them green the amount might be neglecteble (in terms of acute poisoning).
Not days to maturity, but days it takes from flower to ripe fruit. Differences in days to maturity tend to be mostly because of differences in how long it takes to flower. There it’s easy to find one month of difference.
If you still want to make sure seeds are ripe, you not gonna pick the fruits much before they start to change colour when you know for sure. Weather can influence the ripening time enough that you probably don’t get more than a week of extra before you have certain signs. Don’t see that as something worth spending effert in trying to optimize. Chuck some more water to them if you want to get zucchinis and better variety. Last year I had many that kept producing with the seed fruit on, some even excessively.
Apart from something eating the whole thing, I don’t see anything that would jeopardize getting seeds more than taking fruits too early. Frosts and disease can kill the plants, but not the seeds. Just pick the fruit when the plant is out. Like I said, the window from being save the seeds are ready and having certain signs that it’s ripe enough is very small.
Fruit size only affect ripening times minimally. Weather and how well variety is adapted to the climate affect more. Bigger varieties just gain weight at faster space.
Also potato berries have high variety in poisons. Some varieties have less poisons in berries than others in tubers so in theory those could be borderline edible. I say borderline because you can get poisoning from some potatoes, even without them being green. Occasionally amount of poisons in tubers is so high that normal serving portion might cause poisoning. Bitter skin is good indication that there are poisons in the skin and is then better to remove it plus more pleasant to eat.
Genetics can make a large difference to ripening time. But my suspicion is that epigenetics can often affect that. At least with cucurbits, people keep reporting that when they harvest seeds from the earliest fruits, which they harvest before they are full ripe, the next generation ripens sooner.
Joseph Lofthouse seemed to have that experience with all of his cucurbits, and the story Carol Deppe told about the breeding of Blacktail Mountain watermelon also showed that.
I’m sure this doesn’t apply to all species, but my suspicion is that most species will become more precocious if that is selected for by harvesting the earliest fruits before they’re completely, 100% ripe and then using those seeds to start the next generation.
So if precocity is a trait you really want, I would definitely pick your squashes-to-save-seeds-from as early as possible, within the range of being reasonably certain they will now finish ripening off the plant. That’s what I’m doing.
Precocity is particularly valuable if there are unpredictable and unpreventable survival risks to the plant – for instance, weather or wildlife. Another advantage in long growing seasons is that really quick days to maturity may allow for more than one generation per year, which would be great to speed along adaptation.
Meanwhile, I think Jesse is absolutely right that harvesting too early is likely to jeopardize getting viable seeds. Trying to select for precocity by harvesting fruits before they’re fully ripe can be a gamble. Not everyone will want to take that gamble.
There is, of course, also the factor of flavor to consider. A lot of fruits taste significantly better if they ripen fully on the plant, rather than being picked immature and finishing their ripening indoors. Whenever flavor is very important to you (including times when the flavor is the primary trait you’re selecting for), the risk of preventing peak flavor from forming may also be undesirable.
Speaking of flavor, I’ve been told that smaller fruits often correlates with more intense flavor (because the flavor compounds are more concentrated into that small package). However, the correlation between smaller fruits and more total fruits is very weak. With cucurbits, for example, I keep being told that if you breed for smaller fruits, you’re not going to go from four big fruits to twenty small ones – you’re going to go from four big fruits to four small ones. Which most people would not prefer.
One possible way to select for greater total harvest would be to weigh all the harvest from each plant, and then plant seeds from the one that produced the most food for you, without caring whether it came from a few big fruits or a whole lot of small ones. But that’s pure speculation on my part. I don’t bother to weigh things; I just suspect that would work.
The 22-day old seeds had embryos which tried to grow, but they all failed.
This thread has been very helpful for me to reflect on my experience, thanks everyone. Every day I am making or checking on manual and ‘guided’ open pollination crosses (interplanting varieties and removing all male flowers on one variety). As the season counts down to frost I want to make sure my priority crosses are viable before it’s too late.
I would like to share my updated schedule concept for seed viability along with some context about my climate and crop. I would definitely be interested to know how this schedule compares to other experience.
The project uses Cucurbita pepo var ovifera genetics with possibly some other domestic C. pepo genes in the mix. I’m selecting for maximum lignified/gourd rind, which seems to exist along a spectrum in my population. I’m also selecting for earliness and indirectly for early seed viability. In other words, I’m trying to restore and maintain what I consider to be two traits from the wild ancestors: early seed viability paired and then the eventual formation of a hollow floating gourd that protects the seeds a year or more.
My climate is Eastern Kentucky among low-elevation mountains on the boundary between USDA zone 6b and 7.
I would like to do more trials to have more data points than my two recent observations. But I have been growing some of these lines for a couple of seasons; I have some accumulated experience guiding my estimates. These numbers are in approximate days after fertilization.
- 7 days - Good time to harvest fruit for summer squash. Less mature fruit can be eaten raw including skin.
- 15 days - The skin is becoming too tough to eat when cooked.
- 20 days - The seed coats are too fully formed to eat when cooked.
- 30 days - Approximate minimum time for some viable seeds when there is no alternative.
- 40 days - Minimum time for viable seeds as part of an aggressive schedule.
- 50 days - Viable seeds
I have noticed a correlation between harder, thicker rinds and shelf life, but it’s not a perfect correlation. My spaghetti zucchinis had a shelf life of ten months, and they had very thin, soft rinds. Easy to slice. My tatume had a shelf life of only three months, and the rind was as hard as a rock and incredibly hard to cut.
Personally, I’d adore soft rinds that are easy to cut combined with a long shelf life. But that combination is uncommon, and one of the reasons is probably that soft rinds are easier to damage, which can cause early spoilage.
Anyway, that’s just a consideration. If long shelf life is the only reason you want thicker rinds, you may want to select for long shelf life (by testing everything you grow) rather than for thicker rinds in and of themselves.
If there are other reasons you want thicker rinds (for instance, them being less delicate and easy to damage), then selecting for thick rinds is definitely the thing to do. 