There’s a seedless variety which is supposed to be mostly thornless:
(Nods.) That’s probably Norris. It could be Darrow, which is supposed to be completely thornless, but Norris (which is only mostly thornless) seems to be more common. It’s also possible it’s some completely other seed-grown variety that has no official name.
I definitely want Darrow because I value that thornlessness so much, and it’s supposed to be delicious and parthenocarpic anyway. Still, Norris and Chul Ri are both cultivars I’ll probably get, too.
I’m also planning to grow che seedlings. I bought seeds (sourced from China) at Sheffields, and I just bought two unsexed seedlings from an Etsy seller (sourced from England’s Orchard and Nursery, which probably has the most che diversity in the United States).
I will probably use Darrow as the mother in all the crosses I make at first, because the thing I most want to select for is thornlessness. But since I don’t know of any other fully thornless cultivars (yet), and I will need males in order to get Darrow to make seeds, I figure collecting a lot of genetic diversity to play with is wise. And as long as I’m doing that, why not throw some of the less-thorny females into the mix and see if them have any particularly desirable traits (large fruit size, high productivity, etc.) that I’d like to cross with a thornless male as well?
And then, since I’m planning to make crosses anyway, I’m kinda looking at my figs (which are all parthenocarpic females that couldn’t be pollinated naturally anyway, because we lack the fig wasp in this climate) and wondering, “Could I get away with syringing pollen from a thornless male che into one of those fig fruits, and get viable seeds? If so, what kinds of plants might result from that?”
It might be cool to see if I can get something thornless and tasty that’s a little more cold tolerant than figs usually are, and which might maybe have a different flavor than either species.
And then I kinda look at my mulberries, and think, “Well, those are really cold tolerant and in the same family, and they also lack thorns . . . could I get some of those crossed with che?!”
Basically, I just want to be a botany nerd and run experiments. 
I would try to figure out if thornless-ness may be associated with any recessive genes. That way you’ll know even if you get some thorny second generation plants they could be crossed or back-crossed and potentially provide a high percentage of thornless in the offspring.
Yes, I definitely want to figure that out! I haven’t seen anything on the Internet that tells me one way or the other (so if you find research on that, please link me!), so if nobody can tell me, I’ll have to observe and see if I can figure it out from how the offspring segments out.
I also want to know the chromosome number of che, because that’ll give me a good idea if they could maybe be crossed with figs. I haven’t found anything that tells me the chromosome number of che (if you find something, please link me!), but according to this website, it looks like figs are diploid and have 13 chromosome pairs.
Yes!
This tree contains both Moraceae family & Urticaceae family.
Urticaceae Moraceae Whole Family Phylogenic Tree Supplementary Files for Classification of Urticaceae based on morphology and phylogenetic inference.pdf (359.4 KB)
That would be a big jump within the family. The whole Fig (Ficus) genus is large enough to be it’s own tribe (Ficeae tribe), many subgenera function like seperate genera. Inter-subgeneric hybrids would already be amazing to achieve in Ficus, inter-tribal hybirds is another tall order (Not impossible but probably next to it).
Che belongs to it’s own tribe Maclureae, containing only the genus Maclura, each section kind of functions like seperate genera in the tribe.
What might be more possible is Jackfruit grafted onto mulberry (Or vice versa). Even tho they belong to seperate tribes, both Moreae & Artocarpeae tribes are directly sister to each other.
I’m not done sorting the taxonmy for Moraceae on my edible plants wiki, but this can help give you an idea.
This kind of gives you a breakdown of which tribes have alliance with each other.
That’s such an overpowder trait 
, too fantastic!
eh… maybe? It depends on how far you push it. I think it’s worth a try grafting che onto mulberry & vice versa. Che would probably take better onto Osage Orange since they both belong to the same genus.
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@UnicornEmily
Also forgot, this is the Fig Phylogenic Tree, not all species but enough to represent each section.
They do use Osage Orange as rootstock for Che.
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ooh! This is good, now I wonder if some of those big fruit genes can be horizontally transfered into Che?
Maybe taking a young che seedling/sapling and grafting it onto mature Osage orange or vice versa.
Do you have a tree for prunus?
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Never Mind, I see you’ve already got them posted above! Thanks so much for this helpful thread!
Hi, do you have trees for quinoa and its relatives (I’m interested to see which weedy plants are most closely related to quinoa) and for the various cultivated new and old world amaranths? (I realize that the amaranth group is in constant flux, so if there isn’t anything available for that, no problem.)
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I have been trying to figure out why prunis domestica has double the chromosomes of the other prunis. I thought they might be farther apart on the tree, but it appears not.
Salicina, the Asian plum, can cross with apricots, peaches, cherries, I assume also with almonds, but domestica, the European plum, can’t cross with anything outside of its own family.
Yes a lot for the Quinoa & relatives.
and also useful is the sister clade to the quinoa/lambsquater chenopodiums, the Atriplex clade
As for quinoa breeding, pretty much any True Chenopodium species is cross compatible (Not those that have been split into different genera (Chenopodiastrum, Oxybasis, Lipandra, Blitum, Dysphania)).
I think you’ll find this wiki page I started very helpful
Kind of… but a lot of progress has been made!
As for Amaranths (Amaranthus), 3 main subgenra groupings.
I have not looked into double chromosome numbers in Prunus domestica but it probably happened during domestication.
Reguardless I don’t see why mis-matching chromosomes in Prunus or broadly speaking the whole Rosaceae family are an issue or strong hybridization barrier. This is the plant family known for intergeneric hybrids, wide hybrids are relatively easy to make in this family compared to other plant families.
Perhaps without mentor grafting & mentor pollination, those two techniques should solve a lot of the incompatibility problems.
This is something I still need to look into further. Feel free to share what you know.
Thanks, those are helpful!
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Are wild onions (canadensis, pretty sure that’s what I have) more closely related to domestic onions, or another of the allium family? Can they cross?
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Allium phylogeny is a bit confusing, it’s mostly sorted into 3 evolutionary lineages with some subgenera & species that appear all over.
I tried my best to sort all the species as accurately as possible after comparing multiple phylogenetic trees and posted them here. it differs from the Wikipedia version.
Allium canadense is often confused with Allium vineale as both are wild species that make bulbils in it’s flower head but Allium vineale is more common in lawns - often known as Onion Grass or Crow Garlic.
Allium canadense is in the Amerallium Subgenus and within the Amerallium + Caulorhizideum Sections Clade/Grade.
The subgenus Amerallium contains many other wild edible species that might be cross compatible with Allium canadense if the Chromosome Numbers match up like
- Allium cernuum (Nodding Onion)
- Allium stellatum (Prairie Onion)
- Allium ursinum (Wild European Bear Garlic)
- Allium moly (Ornamental Yellow Moly Onion).
It’s photogenically in a completely different evolutionary lineage from Allium cepa (Cultivated Onion), Allium sativum (Cultivated Garlic) & Allium porrum (Garden Leek).
Here’s the phylogenetic tree for Subgenus Amerallium, you can see your Allium canadense belongs in section Amerallium colored in red.
As for Allium vineale, it belongs to the Allium Subgenus and within the Expanded Allium & Aculsea Sections Clade. Allium vineale belongs to the same section as both Garlic (Allium sativum) & Garden Leek (Allium porrum) so it’s possible to get those to cross if the chromosome numbers match up.
Here’s the phylogenetic tree for Subgenus Allium.
The Allium genus is well known to not make fertile hybrids between species with different chromosome numbers, even if they are phylogenetically close, belong to both the same subgenus & section.
For example Allium ×proliferum (Egyptian Walking Onion) is a Hybrid between Allium cepa x Allium fistulosum but it often fails to make viable seed for the next generation & instead just only makes bulbils. These bulbils eventually fall from heavy wait & land on the floor to grow more plants (Essentially walking hence the Name).
Take a picture of your wild onions in question and I can help you identify them correctly.
Both species make bulbils but the flowers look very different. Both species have have white or purple flowers but shape is consistently different between both. A. vineale is more closed petal vs A. canadense is more open petal.
Both species bulbils germinate, resulting in crazy hair aesthetic (all edible & delicious) but A. vineale tends to have more bulbils.
However the leaves when cut in half is completely different inside. A. vineale is hallow & A. canadense is curved in cross-section.
The root bulbs are also different, A. canadense is fibrous vs A. vineale has mini bulblets next to it (Just like real Garlic - no wonder they are closely related)
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These have a flat leaf and a single bulb. I’ll get some pictures tomorrow.
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Just to show my own local A. canadense …
Mine have much rounder/smoother non-fiberous bulbs, and sometimes they appear to be clumping but maybe that’s just them growing separately and crowded together.
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Perhaps after peeling the papery fiberous coating? or maybe different varities have fiberous bulbs? Well reguardless yours doesnt make offset bulblets so it’s probably Allium canadense. I’ve never managed to find Allium canadense, it’s definitely and Allium I want to try eating & growing.
I got the fibrous bulb photo from this website
Yours do seem to match with Allium canadense from what I’ve researched.
Altho Samuel Thayer found his bulbs to look like this, perhaps the pulling process if not done carefully leaves the criss-cross fiberous coating in the ground?
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