I'm the Phylogenic Tree Plug, What do you need?

VeggieSavage · January 1, 2025, 9:23pm

Hello & Welcome, I am the Phylogenic Tree Plug. If there’s a Phylogenic Tree you need I gotchu, just ask. I’ve been collecting for years & have over 300+ Phylogenic Trees (And Counting).

I made this little meme to show you I mean bussiness . search by hitting CRTL F

Phylogenic Trees are basically Family Trees for any Crop species. They’re a very helpful supplemental tool when trying to understand what could potentially be cross-compatible or not (Of course pair these with what has already been proven to be cross-able).

Here are some of the Best Phylogenic Trees I found! Feel free to share ones you find too (I’m still collecting)!

Entire Gourd Family (Cucurbitaceae) Phylogenic Tree

Entire Mustard Family (Brassicaceae) Phylogenic Tree

Entire Barberry (Berberidaceae) Family. Phylogenic Tree. Mayapple (Podophyllum), Mahonia, Berberis

Whole Persimmon (Ebenaceae) Family (Diospyros)

Entire Fabeae Tribe Phylogenic Tree. Lentils (Lens), Vetch & Fava Bean (Vicia) Pea (Pisum & Lathyrus)

Basic Whole Solanaceae Family Phylogenic Tree (Only at Genus Level)

Whole Solanum Genus Phylogenic Tree (Nearly Every Species is listed, Potato, Tomato, Pepino Melon, Eggplant, Black Nightshade)

Campanulaceae (Bellflower) Family Phylogenic Tree

Basic Whole Rosaceae Family Phylogenic Tree

Nearly Full Pome Fruits (Maleae Tribe, Apple-Pear) Photogenic Tree in 4 Parts

Chenopodioideae Subfamily (Spinach-Quinoa)(Chenopodium) Phylogenic Tree

Betoideae Subfamily (Beet/Swiss Chard-Caucasian Spinach) Phylogenic Tree

Amaranthus All Amaranths Phylogenic Tree

Gogiberry (Lycium) Phylogenic Tree

Beautiful Color Coded Capsicum Pepper Phylogenic Tree

Capsicum, 5 Main Cultivated Pepper Species ID Trait Phylogenic Tree

Lycianthes with Capsicum Phylogenic Tree

Jaltomta (Jaltomato) Phylogenic Tree

** Whole Solanum Genus (Tomato, Potato, Black Nightshade, Eggplant, Litchi Tomato, ect)

Physalis + Physalinae Tribe Circular Phylogenic Tree (Groundcherry/Tomatillo)

Cucumis Melon Cucumber Phylogenic Tree

Cucumis melo Melon Focused Phylogenic Tree

Cucurbita Squash Phylogenic Tree

Citrullus Watermelon & other close relatives Phylogenic Tree

Cirtrullus Watermelon Genus Focused with Beautiful Photos Phylogenic Tree

Vigna Beans (Cowpea, Mung, Rice, Urad, Bambara Ground Bean) Phylogenic Tree

Phaseolus Beans (Common, Runner, Lima, Tepary, ect) Phylogenic Tree

Cajanus Piegon Pea Phylogenic Tree

Celtis Hackberry Phylogenic Tree with Seed Photos! EPIC!

Cinnamon (Cinnamomum) & Sassafrass Circular Phylogenic Tree. With ID Traits EPIC

Prunus (Peach, Almond, Cherry, Plum) Phylogenic Tree, Simple Color Coded

Pome Fruits Maleae Tribe [Apple (Malus), Pear (Pyrus), Amelanchier, Aronia, Sorbus, ect.]

Rubus Blackberry/Raspberry Brambles Phylogenic Tree with Pictures

Brassica rapa Cultivars Phylogenic Tree

Brassica oleraceae Cultivars Phylogenic Tree

JinTX · January 1, 2025, 11:14pm

This is a great resource, thank you!!

Based on your knowledge of crosses within families relative to phylogenetic charts, do you think there is good potential for a cross between Texas Persimmon and any of the other more commonly cultivated species like D. virginiana, D. kaki, or D. lotus? Maybe a bridge species would be required?

There is very little information available, but from what I have found it seems like the common opinion is that they don’t cross. But I do have plans to try eventually.

VeggieSavage · January 2, 2025, 12:49am

Your welcome!

Your just in luck Persimmons are my favorite fruit, Crossing Diospyros virginia x Diospyros texana is one of my Breeding Projects (As well as with D. nigra & many other species). Direct pollen is very unlikely to create a hybrid as both species belong to seperate groups. The groups or clades kind of behave like their own subgenera that don’t really cross outside their group (However these aren’t well documented, thus still leaves lots of unexplored crossability potential).

Diospyros Phylogenic Trees
I decided to broke them down into 2 groups, orange & black (There’s still a lot to learn, but I mostly understand the orange group. )

Orange Cold Hardy Persimmon group contains : D. virginina, D. kaki, D. lotus, D. rhombifolia. These all should be cross compatible with each other as several inter-specific cultivars exist (Even a 3 way D. virginiana x D. kaki x D. lotus has been made).

Black Persimmon Group contains : D. texana, D. nigra & many many more species I haven’t learned yet in that clade. Just look at the closeness of D. texana & D. nigra. Also what stood out is D. rhombifolia, that’s a cold hardy Orange Persimmon, what’s it doing in this clade?

Knowing this, It seems more likely that D. texana is more likely crossable with D. nigra (Chocolate Pudding Fruit) than with the Orange Persimmon groups (But not impossible). However D. rhombifolia being found in both groups makes me question this theory.
Then again even not all Diospyros virginian species are fully cross compatible only because of different chromosome numbers (60 vs 90 Chromosome number groups). Most named cultivars are 90 Chromosome group & crosses between the 2 have resulted in aborted seeds (Many fruits were seedless or contained few seeds). This makes me think, is this how we can make seedless American Persimmons? How the the Asian Persimmons get so Huge & Seedless? Maybe the wild ancestors of D. kaki also had different polidy numbers just like their American Counterpart (D. virginiana) does? If so maybe our ancestors figured out to solve the polidity issues by grafting D. kaki?

Getting back to Texas x American Persimmon crosses, I think it’ll require outside the box crossing methods like Mentor Grafting, Mentor Pollination & other Ways to bend Horizontal Gene Flow towards crossing. I think a D. kaki x D. virginiana will be more likely to cross with a D. texana x D. nigra hybrid, especially if both are mentor grafted to each other (Essentially creating Intermediate Bridge-Species, Grafting & Crossed together). The wider the cross & the younger the sapling, the more plastid the offspring will be thus the more accepting it will be to foreign pollen. If we take a Young D. kaki x D. virginiana hybrid scion & graft onto a Mature Texas Persimmon Plant (Or better a D. texana x D. nigra), the Texas Persimmon will mentor the young Hybrid Scion to resemble texas persimmon (Especially the offspring seeds saved from the scion’s fruit).

Plus you can also try mentor pollination, when you take it’s own species pollen & mix pollens of many foreign species, Tricking the flower into accepting foreign pollen as to not reject it’s same species pollen. This works with Squash easily & if Combined with Mentor Grafting, I think you’ll have a good shot at Crossing D. texana x D. virginiana. That’s how Russian Plant Breeder Ivan Michurin was able to make such wide crossed like Aronia x Sorbus = Sorboaronia.

@JinTX I hope we can work on this project together, as collaborators (With Hope of Trading seeds & Scions). Currently I have Diospyros virginiana seeds & a few D. kaki seeds but no D. texana seeds or Land. If you ever go foraging, be on the look out for Texas Persimmons. I found someone willing to trade seeds but they haven’t responded yet.

JinTX · January 2, 2025, 2:22am

I would love to try this cross as well, the only issue would be that D. nigra and any potential crosses would probably require a greenhouse.

This is my planned strategy, I’m going to throw every method of crossing possible and just see if anything sticks.
I’m especially hopeful for the mentor pollination. But who knows, it may be the combination of multiple methods that does the trick.

I would love to. I have a small quantity of seed from D. lotus and also D. texana. And at my property I have at least one wild D. virginiana and have planted many seeds of selected improved trees. Hopefully some grow . When I eventually move out there I plan to plant some D. kaki, D. texana, and D. lotus also.

For now, I have been purchasing any D. texana seeds I find available attempting to get as much genetic diversity as possible so I can grow a grex/landrace of D. texana.
The seeds are rarely available and can be pretty pricey. I’ve met so many people interested in growing it, so if I can successfully get at least a few trees growing and fruiting I hope to be able to produce lots of seed that I can trade/giveaway and maybe help make it more commonly available.

This year I will be growing some of the seeds in pots for the first time. I’ve read D. texana is a very slow growing tree.

Unfortunately I am in North Texas and D. texana does not grow this far north. But I anytime I travel I am always looking out for unique plants and seeds.

VeggieSavage · January 2, 2025, 11:36am

Indeed, altho would grafting D. nigra onto D. texana make the D. nigra scion also cold hardy? Or would it still require a greenhouse? Maybe a really sheltered location could be enough to stretch the hardiness zone?

Likewise! I wonder if 60 vs 90 chromosome D. virginiana will make a difference when crossing with D. texana? Might be worth trying to find both types. I looked on Inaturalist & it seems D. texana & D. nigra populations intersect at the edges in Mexico. Would be wild if there was a naturally occurring cross in Mexico wouldn’t it?

Fantastic! There’s a good chance being in the south that your wild D. virginiana is 60 Chromosomes & the Cultivated one you got are 90 Chromosomes. Meaning you can experiment with both types to see which crosses better with D. texana. As for getting D. nigra seeds, do they sell them at grocery stores? I feel like fruits might show up at a Mexican Grocery store.

Awesome! Plus with more diversity, more likely wider crosses are possible. Does D. texana have different chromosome populations like D. virginiana? Are you also gonna find ways to speed run the “Seed to Mature fruit” growing period? There are lots of ways to speedrun the juvenile stage like grafting seedling wood onto mature trees then bending branches sideways/horizontallly to force hormones/axns to oxinate/accumulate on the branches, switching plant from Leaf-Growth Mode into Fruit Mode.
Also Summer Pruning works super well at getting lots of Fruits & may help speed run the process too. Winter Pruning shifts plant into Growth Mode vs Summer Pruning Shifts Hormones into Fruit Mode.

They really shouldn’t be, like come on it’s a wild tree anyone living in the region can find and harvest for free . Hopefully you can find some foragers & convince them to save seeds.

Awesome! I hope you have great success! The more people growing it in different regions, the more likely new variations can show up (Especially from seed & Experimental Crossing like we plan to).

So have I, but I wonder if it’s slow growing only because of the lack of water? And would grafting onto D. virginiana help speed up it’s growth? D. texana seeds still need cold stratification right?

Is that because the species simply hasn’t spread up north or because North Texas is outside it’s hardiness zone? Regardless grafting onto D. virginiana may help improve cold hardiness of D. texana (If they’re graft compatible, that’s a good sign for crossing too).

JinTX · January 2, 2025, 5:46pm

I think grafting could possibly increase some hardiness but D. nigra is only hardy to zone 10 so I don’t think that scion is going to survive a freeze without heavy protection.

I bet it’s out there somewhere, but probably even more difficult to obtain.

I’m not sure about chromosomal differences.

I’m sure I will get there eventually but for now my main goal is just getting the plants started and seeing how they do.

I assume the slow growth is probably an adaptation to the drier growing region.
Yes I think if successful grafts can be made that it would likely increase growth rate.
I don’t know that cold stratification is required, since D. texana’s range extends so far south into frost free regions. I think it, as well as D. virginiana, is very heavily dependant on animal digestion for stratification. D. virginiana is one of the most common and undigested seeds I have seen in animal droppings.

It is supposedly hardy to zone 7, so that shouldn’t be an issue. I believe there is a range barrier created by different soil type, possibly in combination with higher rainfall and colder temperatures.
D. texana prefers the sandy/rocky limestone heavy soils which are found south and west.
East Texas soils are probably too acidic.
The region I live is known as the “blackland prairie” and has an extremely heavy black clay. It runs from near houston all the way up to the Dallas area. I think this is the main barrier to D. texana and many other species. Kind of a dividing line between Central Texas and East Texas.

JinTX · January 2, 2025, 5:51pm

This is more eco-regions than soils specifically but it shows the pattern.
I have a better map on my computer I will add later.

Tanjaeskildsen · January 2, 2025, 7:25pm

Omg you are amazing! What a resource🙏🏽

VeggieSavage · January 3, 2025, 12:18pm

I’ve heard people tried grafting Tomato onto Gogi berry & it helped make the tomato scion also cold hardy. Something I want to try as well & with grafting onto Bittersweet Nightshade. I still think it’s worth a try but only if you got enough D. nigra scions to spare.

No worries, we’ll create it instead ! After all isn’t that what plant breeding is, creating what you don’t have?

Indeed! That’s the first step but it’s good to have future plans in mind.

That’s what I was thinking but I wanted to confirm cuz with a USDA Hardiness Zones 7a to 9b, maybe in the most northern parts, they can develop a need for cold stratification but in a lighter form? Or maybe it’s not needed but helps?

Interesting, & if soils are too acidic in East Texas, maybe grafting on D. virginiana root stock which can handle such soils can allow you to grow it there? Plus aren’t the soils there acidic because of the Mychorrhiza & other Fungi? Surely D. texana forms Mychorrhizal conections if has the chance to right? I suspect the soil divide could be between fungal & bacterial dominant.

Wow! Nice map, no wonder Texas has so much bio-diversity, so many species are needed to adapt to each zone.

Thank you!

JinTX · January 3, 2025, 5:55pm

I think it is definitely worth trying. But I think there is a hard line between “cold-hardy” and freeze tolerant.
Plants that do not have adaptations to freezing temperatures are not likely to gain the ability through a graft.
But that graft may be enough to give it the cold hardiness necessary to only require minimal protection vs requiring a greenhouse environment.

Great idea! That would be a good plan for anyone in warmer zones with acidic soils.

I believe it is do to the increased rainfall, being along the gulf.

JinTX · January 3, 2025, 7:56pm

Here are some better maps on Texas soils/vegetation regional breakdowns for anyone interested…

VeggieSavage · January 3, 2025, 9:26pm

HA, I seen what you did there, nice pun! It all depends on how far you can push the zone. There’s a good point here, I think the only reason Passiflora incaranata became cold hardy is by surviving via roots, there are many perennial palnts that went with that strategy for a reason.

Good point! That’s still a win if you it allows to grow plants in a hoophouse or a really sheltered micro-climate.

A friend shared this excerpt with me (Forgot where it was from), A Black Nightshade (Solanum mephiticum) shrub formed a protective skin around the tomato scion!? What do you think of this?

I’m wondering if the seeds from the D. texana Scion, will also gain a higher tolerance to acidic soils (There’s a good chance with mentor grafting).

Yea, which also leads to more Fungi.

Hugo · January 3, 2025, 10:02pm

Serious research! Significant topic for years to come.

Bobby · January 3, 2025, 10:21pm

I searched for that species but it seems like Solanum mephiticum is an african tropical plant and I can’t think of a reason it would have better frost resistance than regular tomato. Also, in our garden, Solanum nigrum (Black Nightshade) dies before the tomatoes do, at -1 to -2 measured temp. So this piece of information is interesting to me, how would it work?

JinTX · January 3, 2025, 10:29pm

Absolutely, just like cannas and hardy banana and many other plants.
Of course any hardwood tree that adapts this method is going to become seasonal perennial bush.

I would be interested to see what actually happened.
My initial interpretation is that it formed a “bark” layer around the tomato at the graft point and then the tomato died back to that point but retained enough scion inside the protective layer to regrow?

I think the fungi follow the soil PH environment though. They play a huge role, but only after the right conditions have been met.

If I collect and incubate a bunch of fungi/microbes from an acidic soil and then apply them to my alkaline soil it will have very little, if any, effect on the PH of my soil.

There would need to be a heavy source or application (compost) of organic matter to breakdown before any change in PH could occur. This is where the fungi/microbes would come into play, but they will only bring it to a more neutral PH level (over a long period) rather than what would be considered acidic. And as soon as the food (the organic matter) is stopped this effect would begin to reverse.

The main way an acidic soil type is naturally produced is by the nutrient leaching effects of an area that receives regular heavy rains. And of course increased rainfall/humidity will also help increase the breakdown cycle of fungi/microbes and organic materials. But that’s all a very long process if you are starting with an area that has a high PH level.

VeggieSavage · January 3, 2025, 11:24pm

Thank you! I’ve been collecting Phylogenic Trees for quite a while now .
It’s been 5 years of constant researching, almost became a daily grind. I have no land but so much passion/drive to grow my own food so I just put all that energy into researching. Getting the homework out the way so I can hit the floor running when I get land to Landrace Garden on.

Yea I could barley find any info on the species other than that it was in the Black Nightshade group. I have no idea where my friend got the excerpt from, I don’t even know if the authors mistaken it for a different species. Reguardless of what happened, It gives me a good idea to try grafting with Bittersweet Nightshade for making cold hardy plants.
I took this photo of bittersweet Nightshade after frost, somehow the leaves were still standing & quite fresh (Perhaps not hard enough of a frost).

I think it would help lignify any solanum scion. I discuss more over here whilte trying to breed Bittersweet Nightshade for edible fruit.

Don’t Peppers start to form Lignified bark at the end of the season, imagine if it could survive winter via the roots? They are a perennial after all, people even overwinter them, I just don’t understand how they make the peppers plants go dormant (It doesn’t drop it’s leaves hence why they prune them back hard).

Very interesting thoughts, I also wonder if you make tomato the middle internode ! Imagine if it could lignify the tomato scion from both directions (Top & Bottom), I mean if Tomato can graft onto bittersweet Nightshade, whose to say I can’t graft another bittersweet nightshade onto the Tomato Scion?

I remember my friend found Some French researchers even managed to cross Tomato x Gogi berry (A rediculously wide cross!), @Ascentropic I forgot the study link. So Gogi berry grafting for cold hardiness maybe even more effective than Bittersweet Nightshade, but why not try both & see which is better?

Indeed, Pioneer species (Often Labeled “Invasive” despite being their ecological role) help facilitate good conditions.

Yea, something tells me they will die cuz the enviroment isn’t there for them. I just know Plants teaming up with the Fungi & Soil life affect the PH of the soil by chemically altering it. Well at least that’s what I remember from watching all the Matt Powers Elain Inghram videos on YouTube.

Depends, unless the plant can just change the Ph around it’s root zone, no reason to change entire ecosystem’s ph soil if you don’t have to, right? Organic matter always is generated by the plants growing there (Why I like Fall + Chop & Drop).

Interesting, Doesn’t Matt Powers & Elain Inghram teach you can fix the Ph balance of the soils sometimes in as little as a year? I think they were using compost teas but I wasn’t sure it’s effectivness if you cna just chop & drop your way to fertility & PH balance (Granted takes longer).

JinTX · January 4, 2025, 12:05am

Yes adding organic matter to a soil can improve soil health, including PH in either direction. But what is being corrected is usually that you are working with very high or low PH and working it closer to a balance somewhere in the middle.
Taking a highly alkaline soil and trying to make it acidic (through any method) is what I’m saying would be extremely unlikely as well as unsustainable. Especially in a short timeframe.

VeggieSavage · January 4, 2025, 12:13am

I see, well maybe reaching that 7 balance is all you need, the plants can make the PH range they like in their personal rhizosphere right? I mean that’s how Paul Gouchi was able to grow plants who love drastically different PH ranges right next to each other.

JinTX · January 4, 2025, 12:33am

I think that is the key.
The plants may have potential to adapt in the direction they need but within a reasonable range. So starting from a neutral point would allow for this.

In the case of adapting persimmon using the root stock I think we may benefit more from grafting D. virginiana onto D. texana for growing in a higher alkaline desert type environment.

stephane_rave · January 9, 2025, 8:23am

Do you have the phylogenic tree of the Asian Diospyros?

I already have D. japonica in cultivation and also a species from seeds that I brought back from North Vietnam (Fansipan) which I never managed to identify with flores.
Semi-hardy and with strong pillosity on the leaves.

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I'm the Phylogenic Tree Plug, What do you need?

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