Yup! Specifically on the Asian Persimmons.
Take some pictures of your Asian Persimmon, we can try to ID it together.
2 Likes
There are more than 600 species of diospyros in the world! 
as soon as the one I’m talking about has some leaves (June) I will send you a picture.
But good luck, I have peeled flora of North Vietnam and nothing found for a few years…
1 Like
oh yes! So much diversity in the Diospyros genus is yet to be properly documented & many are yet even be discovered (I’ve only been focused on the Orange Cold Hardy Persimmons group, It’s kind of too much to learn already 
). Plus just think about how many species can be created too (Via Wide Hybridization)!
1 Like
I should also add D. japnoica is very closely related to D. lotus (Directly Sister on some Photogenic Trees). I don’t know they’re differences, could they be the under same species as subspecies?
1 Like
Any chance of a Musaceae family or Zingiberales order philogenetic tree? 
1 Like
Yup! Here’s the whole Musaceae Family Phylogenic Tree.
And here’s the Musaceae Family’s brauder position in the order Zingiberales.
2 Likes
Wow, yeah, if Eumusa and Callimusa split off from each other that long ago, I can see why they aren’t genetically compatible anymore. (Honestly, I think there’s a good argument to be made for splitting Musa into two plant families, but the experts know more than me.)
It’s surprising to me that Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana are so far apart philogenetically, since we know they’re genetically compatible. (They’re the ancestors of our modern seedless bananas, and some seeded ones, too.)
Musa cheesmanii and Musa balbisiana are that close philogenetically? Wow, that’s promising for breeding cold hardy bananas. Both species are known to be far more cold hardy than usual. Crossing those two could be really neat.
Interesting, I never thought to pay attention to the time line. Silly me always ignored it
Altho the 5 cultivated Cucurbita species are also not very compatible cuz of long-term domestication where they forgot how to cross with each other. Yet with Mentor Pollination, you can bypass the hybridization barriers.
Makes me wonder with such outside the box crossing methods, surely we can facilitate some genetic flow between both groups?
As for spliting plant families, perhaps they can be 2 seperate subfamileis? I mean Fabaceae has like 5 different Subfamilies (Really Each Family is big enough to be it’s own stand alone family 
, same with some Malvaceae, Apiaceae, Asteraceae, Rosaceae, Cactaceae, Solanaceae & many many other plant families). Subfamiles explain how Tilia & Mallow are part of the same family despite looking very different.
Ooh! This is good news! It’s reasonable to assume all the other species between them are equally Cross compatible (As a bonus they all also happen to have the same Chromosome Number).
How did the seedless banana came to be? Was it really because crossing those 2 species made seedless bannana? Wouldn’t that be a sterility issue past F1?
Well that makes sense, Phylogenic Posiiton often means similar growing needs. What is the hardiness limit for Musa genus? Or do we need to thing in other terms where how many days to maturity for each shoot? Roots are the only part that actually has to survive winter no?
I think this meme Perfectly Communicates how we have to stretch & pull both sides together until our plants grow.
You would think seedless bananas are all sterile triploids, right? But NOPE!
Most seedless bananas are triploid: either AAA, AAB, and ABB.
(A = Musa acuminata, B = Musa balbisiana.)
None are BBB, which makes me think Musa acuminata is probably the only known species with the parthenocarpic trait (which is necessary to get seedless fruit).
So yeah, most are triploids. But there’s Viente Cohol, which is an AA diploid, yet seedless. And there are tetraploids that are AABB. And, fantastically, some of the “sterile” triploids, like Ice Cream (a.k.a. Blue Java), are slightly fertile and able to occasionally make seeds when pollinated.
There’s a ton of genetic potential. The genes are very promising. In theory, there are tons of promising crosses that can be made. The difficulty lies in actually doing it.
See, bananas are pollinated by bats, so outside their native range, they need to be hand-pollinated.
On top of that, bananas flower whenever they jolly feel like it, so it’s really tough to get two plants to sync up just when you want them to.
On top of that, banana pollen has only a few weeks shelf life, even when frozen, so you can’t just store it for later.
The solution to this is scale. You just plain to have to grow hundreds of plants of each species, and eventually the laws of probability will give you one of each species you’re wanting to cross that sync up exactly right. Devoting that much space to bananas is tough for one person to do, but with a wide community of people who are willing to coordinate to mail pollen to each other at just the right times . . .
(Strokes chin meaningfully.)
This is why we need more people working on breeding bananas. 
Here, in case you want to delve into the DNA a little further:
Let me know if anything nifty catches your eye.
1 Like
Wow! There’s a lot I don’t know about Seedless Bannanas, It seems like there is no 1 thing that causes seedless bannanas. I hope there’s possibility for a seedless Parthenocarpic Bannana that can also make seeds if you need it too (Like having your Cake & Eating it too)!
Interesting, I’ve heard the same exact thing for Ginger & Tumeric, Altogether are part of the Zingiberales order, perhaps this order of plants hasn’t really developed long-term pollen. Does onion/garlic or Corn pollen also not last a long time frozen? Could short-life pollen be monocot thing?
WOW! Setting something up like that would be EPIC! Maybe in the future if GTS keeps going we may also have pollen landrace mixes 
If I was growing Banannas, I’d be willing to try something like this.
This gives me an idea, is there anyway to delay flowering enough to allow syncing flowering time? How far apart are flowering times? Could Delayed Flower + extending viability of pollen stretched to their limit be enough?
oh things have defiently caught my eye! Just still so much to study. Thanks for the valuable info. Will add it on to the other info to research when I get start learning about Bananas. Focusing on learning 1 plant at a time.
Yes, THIS. This is what I want. And those do exist! From what I understand, both Ice Cream (a.k.a. Blue Java) and Dwarf Namwah can make a seed or two per every few fruits if pollinated, and that seems pretty perfect.
I have no idea if short-life pollen is a monocot thing, but it’s an interesting question. It would make sense if it’s common for the whole Zingiberales order.
You . . . can delay flowering . . . sort of. Bananas will send up a flower stalk when they’re good and ready, which means “when they have enough fertilizer and water to decide they’re ready.” In theory, you could try to feed one plant a little more and another a little less in order to try to sync up flowering. But given that I’m sure that’s something experts have tried and they still gripe about it being a problem, I doubt it’s all that easy to do. Once a banana has started a flower stalk, there’s no going backwards, and there’s no warning sign when they’re about to do so.
Seriously, those Musaceae species . . . why do they have to be so hard to breed on purpose, when they’re so delicious to eat? 
wow! having only 1 or 2 seeds to deal with is very workable.
oh my… wait so if your prune the flower stalk, it won’t send out another?
Does this really leave planting thousands of different species & varieites until something syncs up as the only option?
Having Long-term Storable pollen would be a game changer. I still wonder if dead pollen could at least transfer something Horizontally? I’ve heard breeders used dead pollen to bypass hybridization barriers (But there doesn’t seem to be any in Bananas, just syncing timing is the only problem right?).
Right!? Perhaps it’s just the way they evlolved. The genus doesn’t have much hybridization barriers just flowering times. Same exact story for the Zingiberaceae. Ginger Family intergeneric Hybrids easily happen with few hybridization barriers if you get flowering times to sync up, perhaps the whole Zingiberales order functions like this. Maybe it’s just a Monocot thing (Poaceae Grass Family also does intergeneric Hybrids easily)? Being able to graft banana trees would be a game changer, but Monocot grafting is near impossible due to plumbing system (How would you match up Vascular Bundles?). Maybe Moncot roots are easier to graft? idk
1 Like
Yuuuup. If you cut off a pseudostem’s flower stalk, it will never send up another. Same goes for winterkilled flower stalks. This is a very common frustration for gardeners outside the tropics (because even the most cold hardy bananas tend to winterkill all the way down to the corm).
That’s why you’ll see a lot of banana growers in temperate climates frantically wrapping huge pseudostems with emerging flower stalks in the fall to try protect them for the winter.
Now, each corm can send up an unlimited number of pseudostems, so a healthy mat will produce plenty of bunches. It’s very possible, and in fact common in the tropics, for a well-established mat to produce four or more bunches throughout a year.
But for those of us in temperate climates, who can expect winterkill of all tops of the plant every year . . . yeah, there’s a challenge.
It seems to me that the solution is obviously either: a) more cold hardiness, so pseudostems and flower stalks can survive temperate climates without winterkilling, and/or b) growing bananas that can go from brand new pup to ripe fruit within four to six months.
Either of those paths would fix the problem, and both traits are findable (though rare) within the Musaceae family right now, so both seem worth chasing.
1 Like
Does that apply to Zingiberaceae too? Is the whole Zingerbales Order like that?
Makes me wonder if it’s just better to build a Green House for Bannanas? That’s what the Canadian Guy at Arkopia has done! He’s yeilding bannana even when it’s snowing outside.
In anycase, I think having a greenhouse will still help you breed a cold hardy bannana by having a place to store good quality genetics that may not be so frost hardy.
Wait, so there is no Musa that survives with the tops? Is only the Musaceae Strategy to survive winter by going underground like with tropical Passiflora incarnata?
Most tropical plants only figured out to be perennial in cold climates like this.
Interesting, how cold hardy are the flower stalks that survive winterkilling? like no more than a little dip in freezing?
To make sure we’re staying on topic (grin), here are my philogenetic takeaways from the Zingiberales tree:
- Zingiberaceae (gingers) are closest to Musaceae, so the usual weaknesses for bananas (very prone to root rot, tops tending to winterkill, very little cold hardiness in the family) are probably likely to apply to gingers, too. Does anyone know of cold hardy gingers that aren’t prone to having their tops winterkill, and/or not prone to root rot if overwatered? If so, that would be really good news.
- Costaceae (spiral gingers) are a little further away. Possibly it may be worth looking in that family for edible species with more drought tolerance, more cold hardiness, or less susceptibility to root rot.
- Marantaceae (arrowroot, prayer plant, katempfe, etc.) is the next closest related. Arrowroot (Maranta arundinacea) is known to be very prone to root rot, and is not at all cold hardy. So that’s not very promising.
- Cannaceae (cannas) comes next. There is some hope there. Cannas are definitely prone to root rot, and their tops winterkill, but their rhizomes are pretty cold tolerant; I see people frequently growing them as ornamentals here in zone 7b. I have some cannas overwintering in my garden right now, and I’m hoping they’ll show me they’re fine to be overwintered without protection. So far, signs look good.
- Strelitzia (bird of paradise) is the next step further away. I thought those were ornamental only, not edible, and they mostly are, but apparently the seeds are edible and tasty, so . . . hmmm! These are very prone to root rot, but they’re said to be pretty drought tolerant, so that’s something.
- Heliconiaceae (lobster claw), the next furthest away, looks like it’s very intolerant to drought, very prone to root rot, and very intolerant to cold. Apparently some species have edible flowers, which is interesting, but that’s a tough combination for most climates.
- It looks like Hanguanaceae has been moved to the Commelinales order.
So, takeaways about Zingiberales in general:
- All the Zingiberales seem to be highly suspectible to root rot, so they probably always need to have well-draining soil.
- Most Zingiberales want lots of water and consistently moist soil. Yes, that is an exceptionally annoying combination with the problem above. High humidity tends to help that combination. If you don’t have that, well . . .
- In a place with high humidity and lots of rainfall, bananas thrive in full sun, but my experience in Utah so far has indicated that bananas and cannas do better in full shade. I’ve been told that gingers prefer full shade, too. So this is probably true for most Zingiberales outside of a moist climate with high humidity.
- The Arizona Fruit Trees YouTube channel strongly recommends positioning bananas so that the bottom three or four feet of each stem will always be in full shade, but the tops can grow into full sun. It’s entirely possible a similar kind of setup (being planted north side of a fence or short wall, for example) would benefit other Zingiberales.
As for answers to your questions, I’ll just blather on at length here:
The tops of Musa basjoo can survive freezing temperatures, but the tops aren’t nearly as hardy as the corms (which can sometimes survive zone 5). I’m not sure how hardy the tops are. The tops of the four Musa basjoos I’ve tried definitely didn’t survive in zone 7b for me. Maybe they’d do better in zone 8? Zone 9?
But maybe it wasn’t the cold that did Musa basjoo in here. It’s entirely possible Musa basjoo (whose corm died) is more sensitive than Dwarf Namwah (whose corm survived) to root rot. I don’t know. What I mainly do know is that I’ve killed four Musa basjoos now; they seem to be the quickest to die out of all the bananas I’ve tried so far. I’m not sure why, so my best guess is root rot.
Other cold hardy seeded bananas worth trying are Musa sikkimensis, Helen’s Hybrid, Musa thomsonii, and Musa balbisana. I want to try all of those, and I haven’t had an opportunity to yet; I’ve bought seeds, but none of them germinated.
The most cold hardy seedless bananas are Dwarf Namwah, Dwarf Orinoco, and California Gold (a more-cold-hardy sport of Dwarf Orinoco). They’re all supposed to be hardy to roughly zone 7, maybe a little colder, but that’s the corms, not the tops. I have no idea how hardy the tops are. My experience so far indicates that Dwarf Namwah’s top will definitely winterkill in zone 7b, but the corm can survive and regrow in the spring.
I suspect my cannas will prove to be similarly fine. They’re in full shade right now, quite well-watered, and they did fine in that spot. I put them in last June, so we’ll see if they regrow their tops in spring. I hope so! Signs are promising so far – I checked on the rhizomes of one of the plants about two weeks ago, and the rhizomes looked healthy.
I’m planning to try myoga ginger this year, again in a full shade spot that I water in summer that is moderately sheltered from rain in the winter. I’m thinking that’s probably the key to successfully growing Zingiberales here.
1 Like
There are cannas reliably hardy to zone 6 (and even zone 5 with some protection).
I am working on my own canna project and currently have two extremely hardy cultivars that I plan to cross with a genetically diverse mix.
The nice thing about cannas (if your focus is on edible roots) is that the hardier plants tend to also have larger rhizomes.
1 Like
Ooooh. And that would also be valuable for drought tolerance.
I tasted one of my canna roots a few months ago (just a small piece), and wasn’t wowed, but it was okay. The texture stayed crisp after a long time cooking, which is a good trait if you like that in vegetables; I tend to prefer mine to soften quickly. It had very little flavor – maybe a bit lettuce-y. I think it’d be good cooked in a flavorful broth. It’s possible it might be good fried or roasted.
Have you tasted your canna roots yet? If so, what do they taste like, in your opinion?
1 Like
I have not yet. These cannas are a project I am just getting started with.
I had some cannas that had been in my family for 4 (or maybe actually 5) generations and unfortunately after a few years of rough weather conditions on top of trying to transplant to new locations I believe I have lost the few plants I had remaining.
So I decided to start a new landrace focused on hardiness and edibility.