I suppose that works for people that want only specific species and want more broad genetics.
The thinks that I miss for that system is all the information of individual seeds, and the history of them, how they perform under certain conditions, to whom do they belong.
For me one think that I value a lot is getting some seeds from a specific person, crossing the seeds with mine, and give back the seeds crosses to same person next year. She probably gets the adaptation of his own seeds, with new genetics, and sometime genetics that they would not grow well in that context.
I agree with you about the importance of human contact, because seeds is a community matter. If you read me well, this is the main value I see in the seeds package process. It is presently putting us all (europeans) in contact. It has been a great pleasure for me to echange fava beans with 8 different people this winter.
However, as far as the story of each lineage of seeds is concerned, I like Joseph’s approach that the story is not feeding anyone, the genetics in your seeds are. Since we are all in the process of assembling grexes, we should not take trouble to convey the story of the seeds. I really like to know that these seeds come from your granma , but I will put them in the landrace pot with all the others, right ? Si if it is simple, I will take time to hear or read the story, but I will not build the seed exchange mechanism around this feature.
But it is not only about knowing that the seeds came from grandma, but under which conditions grandma grew them, yes?
I mean I am all for diversity, but if I have space for x number of plants in my garden, isn’t it valuable for me if I can choose to assemble my diversity from a pool of seeds which were grown in conditions similar to mine?
Yes and no. In 2023 I grew a sick amount of bush beans, all kinds, mixed – more than ever before. Like 5-6, if not 10 times more. They came from all possible climates and countries. A fraction of them was adapted to the north, and even then, “north” means a thousand (or more) km south of me.
The population did incredibly well and I now have an initial bush beans grex that is all kinds of colors and patterns. My climate is really not a bush bean climate, so I attribute my success simply to the crazy range I grew.
Surely some died out. Which ones I wouldn’t know because I just mass sowed all in one go…
Well, this example is hard to argue against since it worked so well for you and I don`t doubt that it could also work well for me. I just think that for people with place constraints it may still be valuable to restrict the pool of their new genetics.
On the other hand, we could still do that by swapping one on one and for generating maximum diversity the idea of a central pool that collects all the seeds and sends them out again is certainly very valuable. We could even have an central system like the Americans have for the big crops that everyone wants to grow and still do an Serendipity seed swap for more niche crops?
Laura, i understand your concern, ideally we would change amongst people more similar in climate and soil type, but we’ll have to make do with the few we are at first. You can also do slow landracing, you don’t have to go all in.
If you have limited space, grow what works on one end and the crazy seeds coming from abroad on the other, more densely sown and just eliminate what grows less well. It will take a bit longer to make a new landrace that way, but it will work.
ARe mountainous regions same to polar in the way you have super short season without the benefits of 24 hrs sunlight?
The seeds everybody wants would be cucurbitaceae. But why centralise, it makes it lots of work for someone, unpersonal. Why not split the season in when beans are ready autumn and when most cucurbitaceae are ready? Now-ish.
Yes, knowing the seeds or were they comes from.
When I am searching through seeds banks I always check the country of origin, to know the probable zones or climates that have grown.
@Richard@Laura Your garden is the one that makes the decision in any case so if you can get seeds there is no reason not to give them a change. If they make it, then they have qualities that work in your garden too. The key is to oversow and cull early to have high selection. Otherwise you are not getting adaption even if you choose what you grow carefully. This applies best to genetically diverse seeds, but can be applied to stable varieties as well. Obviously getting huge amounts of stable varieties will cost a lot if you have to buy them, but if you get them free then there isn’t that problem. I would still prefer having stable varieties cross to get maximum genetic diversity. That’s why I would think it’s better to have seed mixes that are already atleast F2. Obviously those seed mixes could be divided for example 2 separate mixes that people could choose from or take from both evenly or favouring other.
Personally I have been a bit picky with stable varieties that I acquire for the costs, but can’t say if it really have saved money for me. Usually there are a few varieties that have have gotten so good reviews for cold tolerance, that they seem like a good bet, but mostly variety reviews are quite generic and you can find good reviews for any variety for many climates. Hot, cold, dry and wet mean different things for different people and in different places. They tell only so much.
With genetic diversity options are limiteless and it’s easier to have overlap. At the end of the day you aren’t looking for something that is adapted to your climate, but instead genes that might be useful. After a few years main focus should be in those seeds that you save yourself and others are just to introduce new genetic material; if it’s useful it will spread and if it’s not it will be eliminated.
Last year I got a hybrid swarm mix of watermelons from Spain that had been sourced from hot areas. Some of those did surprisingly well here even when the weather of the last summer didn’t do any favours. Ofcourse most didn’t make it, same as with any of my watermelons, but enough that I got some genetic transfer.
Mountainous areas do have the benefit of stronger sun compared to similar climates that are futher north. Usually if 2 places have similar averages, one in the north at sea level and other higher up in lower latitudes, the one higher up would have colder nights and hotter days on average. Because of this it seems that mountainous areas usually aren’t inhabited as high as to have similar averages as futher north as frost season would also be longer. Often it seems that mountainuos areas have similar growing season in lenght and night temperatures, but days are hotter on average. This is ofcourse just a grude simplification. there are lot’s of other factores like proximity to ocean to.
I think Cathy is asking permission to start a thread on her summer perpetual sunglasses… One thing which is huge to her landracing style and overall approach.
I’m not using this train yet, but I may have a suggestion, something we use for our associative seed bank.
We produce or exchange seeds only on demand.
That is to say we anticipate the coming season in October, with a small assessment at a meeting. Gardeners tell each other what they have produced and what they lack for the coming season. We make decisions about buying and exchanging seeds based on this balance that has been put in our online inventory.
If we apply to the GTS train, there could be a virtual train (a table?).
A place where each participant says I’ve produced this and I’m looking for this. Some sort of tracking of stock and train requests. The package could thus be constituted in function.
No need for me to put my 200g of basil landrace seeds if only 2 people are looking for 20g. I put 40g to include new ones who will arrive or indecisive last minute who need it. I keep the remaining 160g in my well preserved cold room, ready to refuel the train if needed the next time.
No need to continue circulating 500g of pumpkin seeds if halfway through the applications there is only a need for 100g. I remove 300g that I keep in stock at home.
This resolves the shared fear with Richard that the package will get lost and lose the stumps. Thus we must be able to reduce the overall weight drastically in favor of more diversity. We have more space for more surprise to integrate into it. small quantities of things not in demand but that could please someone in passing.
What this means:
anticipating
weigh the stock at each reception to keep the virtual train up to date.
accept if there is a need to replenish the train en route.
Example: a lot of new people have registered on GTS, the train circulates they want to integrate but ask for basic things that no longer interested the regulars. In this case we must each be able to send to someone who will integrate this at home or directly to the new.
A question that becomes the train in the summer? it still circulates or remains in storage at the last which will relaunch it in the fall. It would be nice for seed conservation reasons to keep it cool, not on the road in hot conditions.
This time could be devoted by the last recipient to make the update following the virtual train, to eliminate the seeds that must no longer take the road or too old…etc
I’m just making a note that I changed the title of the thread to specify this is about the EU version. That way, everyone knows what the thread is about!
After more than a year of touring, the seed chain has grown more complex and now includes more packages. I’ve taken the liberty to merge packets into more inclusive packets that then become even more diverse. Yet, some divisions within species still make sense and sometimes even specific seed packets within types.
In general, add your seed to existing bags. That way, the bags will grow in genetic resources over time. Add your name to the bag, so others can get a sense of where the seed comes from and know who to ask question to.
With heavy seed: Add as much genetic complexity with as few seed as possible. For many crops, the amount of seed we can add is practically limitless. For heavy seed, use your best judgment.
If you don’t find a bag where your seed fits, make a new one. For example, if my melons are super early, instead of writing “Malte’s Northern Melons”, which would prevent other people from adding their Northern or Super Early Melons, I’ll just make a new category called “Northern & Super Early Melons”. That way, we emphasize the community aspect instead of having 10 different bags of flour corn with people’s own blends. And please tell us when you add to the bags with new and impressive things - we love to hear it.
If you find several bags that seem close enough to merge, feel free to do so. You’re doing work for the group by reducing the information complexity (overwhelm and labor) and still keeping the genetic complexity. Yay! We call it the Serendipity seed swap after all.
Many of us love stories and hearing the historical and cultural significance of the seed you’re adding. Consider posting about where your seed comes from here on the forum. That way, people will be able to read about some of the special seed sources that eventually end up in the mixed bags, into our gardens, into our landraces, as individual threads making up a beautiful pattern. If you post about it here, it might be more likely to be remembered too!
As always, no rules without exceptions. Have fun and play.
Does this sound good to you? Please add your comments. I think this might be a good time to do a little revision of the seed chain before most people have finished saving seed.
I have one proposition, which I think makes more sense for us with small growing spaces, since we can’t just sow everything in large number, instead have to be more conscious what we are sowing/planting in limited areas.
For those packages that are mix of seeds from different sources could we just add names of people who put something in there. If people want to share additional info about what they added it can be done here (you mentioned that already). I’m thinking if we add names on the bag, and not just write stuff here, it will be more practical when one is browsing through the whole serendipity box.
In your example ‘label’ would look like:
“Northern & Super Early Melons”
> Malte
> next person who puts something in write down his/hers name here
> …
This might help us knowing whose seed we got and maybe influence our decisions in direct swaps between members.
It also might influence how much seed we will take - for example, due to small space, I have to sow/plant more of those that came from more extreme conditions, too much of those from continental temperate is unfortunately waste of space here since as a rule it doesn’t work that well; it would help with decisions if I knew whose seed is in the mix
we might want to know more about variations in populations in this bag, or climate, or growing conditions, or something else; we might want to have more of those seeds but it’s not in the box anymore (or the box is in some other country and we can’t wait)… - and this way we know who to contact
Lastly, all of us would know if the genetics in the baggie is just from one place, or two or a crazy mix of many different locations - general knowledge on how diverse is a particular population of seeds.
And I absolutely ove this!!!
I’m one of those that like various stories of seeds and I think those stories deserve to be heard and remembered. And honoring stories of seeds that end up in our landraces is a way to build bridges between what we are doing and people who are keeping those heirlooms and also a way to respect people’s love toward their seeds.
Surely there was a thread with improvement suggestions, but I can’t for the life on me find it right now, else I’d have posted it there…
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Perhaps we could introduce Generic and Nerd categories.
Generic:
General veggie seeds
wide crosses of all stuff
Beans, peas, read: heavy stuff
Pumpkins
Corn en masse
Nerd Edition:
Suspected crosses
Hand-picked se+ corn kernels
Anything unexpected, atypical, bordering on impossible: strange antho expression, interspecific crosses, f2…f293 of specifically this or that resistant stuff (Ph2 && Ph3/Ph5/….Ph293 tomatoes, wild x domestic toms)
Fingerprint favas
Pumpkin seeds specifically from your Unexpected, Obscenely Huge and Sweet Monster Fruits (put the generic grex into the regular package)
IDK, the administration of such a package would be quite a pain. Also, who am I to decide if something is nerdy enough? We all tend to think that our stuff is unique and Da Bomb.
Or just do the beans & heavy stuff privately? Not that that helps the individual mailing 20 individual packages of heavy favas internationally. I went broke on such shit last year (as the respected sender) To the point where part of me wished I’d just have dumped all such into that one single package.
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One suggestion is that we introduce QR codes on each bag. The QR codes would lead to photos, forum comments, or insta etc posts where the sender describes, detailed, and/or documents with photos, what it is.
l
