Improving the serendipity seed swap (EU)

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My face looked so happy seeing your maxima, so yes there is interest in that seed for sure. Looking forward to see how they perform in my climate.

We want both your generic and nerd edition seed Cathy :smiley:

As for organizing them, I have some proposals. We began discussing similar questions about a month ago.

For the heavy stuff, I propose that everyone try to add as much genetic diversity with as few seed as possible. For example, you could add 15 beans - each bean looking different from the others. The end goal for the bean bags in our seed chain would be that almost every single bean is different. I think that’s not entirely impossible, in fact, I think that’s the logical direction.

For the “special seed”: I agree, we tend to think our own seed is more special. And they are! At least to us. The more you get to know something, the more special it reveals itself to be. The workaround I propose is to create “generic special bags”. So instead of “Cathy’s Handpicked SE+ Corn” or “Handpicked SE+ Corn I got from my neighbor and harvested in 2023” (which no one can add to and hence we get the multiplication of small overly specific bags), it becomes “SE+ Corn”, which everyone who has that kind of corn can add to.

Overall, the direction I see with the serendipity seed swap is higher complexity through general categories that can include other members’ seed.

With the heavy seed, I wonder if it is time to try out the steward model: Everyone growing fava beans send seed to one person, who then makes sure to mix everything up, and send smaller packages back to people (and other interested). It might not save us in postage collectively, but for that one person making a large donation, it might be easier and less postage to send one big chunk. Again, as you say, that is already pretty similar to what we’re doing in the chain.

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@polarca , the proposals I’m referring to are in this post from 17 days ago - I’ve dug it up from the other long thread and moved it here: Let's improve the serendipity seed swap (EU) - #79 by malterod

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The issue here is, at least, two-fold. For one, the phenotype doesn’t determine the genotype and the potential. You see a low-key, yellow corn kernel and you have no idea that it comes from a population full of antho expression and it could be whatever in the next generation. Why should I not include 173 of those? Why 1 or 5? Second, diversity doesn’t come in the form of one seed. There’s minimum population sizes that make sense to send and receive. That’s why I never send 12 different looking fava beans to anyone. I send a handful or two at a minimum, even if I go broke on the shipping, because I think that my fava population is represented by at least 50, but rather, 100 seeds. Why would I do different when I add to the serendipity pack? And possibly three, how do I take from such a package where I have one and exactly one pink bean with fluorescent purple dots on it? Do I dare to take it?

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Good points! And I agree with you. Judging from surface has limitations. Maybe this confronts us with the very problem that the seed swap and general attitude of adaptation gardening tries to mitigate by letting go of having too granular control and allowing more serendipity.

Can we make a rule of thumb that sounds something like: With heavy seed: Add as much genetic complexity with as few seed as possible? Then people can decide on a seed by seed basis how best to do that.

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Yes, this. This is why, for example, I save, and replant, corn from every cob. Making sure every cob is represented is a great way to make sure you don’t introduce bottlenecks in your own population. If I were to send corn into the serendipity pack, which would probably be bold since it’s just a first-year growout, but maybe I’ll do anyway, it will also be from ALL cobs. That’s the way to have max diversity in corn.

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2 posts were merged into an existing topic: GTS Seed Mix Steward Project (EU)

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Because I spent so much time with the package this time, I thought I would make use of it to organize it a bit more and also wrote down the categories so far. Most certainly not exhaustive and I missed some that are actually in the package. But as a little service, teaser or overview, point for inspiration or working more with distinguishing functional types - whatever you want to do, here they are:

The bags called “Maximum diversity” or “All types together” are basically the same - for whatever reason, all seed of any type from the same species in one bag.

Cucurbitaceae

Cucumber (Cucumis sativus)

  • Pickling
  • Slicer
  • Mix of types (unknown)

Watermelon (Citrullus lanatus)

  • Maximum diversity
  • Crosses with Citron melon (C. amarus)

Cucumis melo

  • Sweet
  • Keeper melons
  • Non-sweet (Armenian cucumbers)
  • Northern & most precocious

Cucurbita pepo

  • Winter squash / Keeper
  • Summer squash / Zucchini

Cucurbita maxima

  • Maximum diversity
  • Crosses with moschata separate

Cucurbita moschata

  • Cucurbita argyrosperma (syn. mixta)
  • Mixta x moschata crosses

Rare crosses, e.g. moschata x maxima (Tetsukabuto) in separate bags

Figleaf gourd (Cucurbita ficifolia)

Other
Kiwano (Cucumis metuliferus)
Calabash (Lagenaria siceraria)
Cucumis zambianus
Achocha (Cyclanthera)
Luffa sp

Other

Fukuoka Grab Bag (all kinds of species not in other bags mixed together in one)

Malvaceae
  • Malva species
  • Alcea
  • Ocra
Caprifoliaceae
  • Centhranthus ruber
  • Valerianella locusta
  • Valerianella sp. - different seed
Grass (Poaceae)
  • Millet
  • Sorghum
  • Black oats

Lamiaceae

Korean mint (Agastache rugosa)
Salvia sclarea
Salvia officinalis
Hyssopus officinalis
Satureja hortensis
Satureja montana
Marjoram (Origanum majorana)
Oregano (Origanum vulgare)
Lamb’s ear (Stachys byzantina)
Motherwort (Leonurus cardiaca)

Brassicaceæ

Brassica oleracea

  • Kales, collards
  • Perennial kale, bushy types (lots of side shoots)

Brassica rapa

  • Mustard greens (var. niposinica), e.g. mizuna-types
  • Heading (subsp. pekinensis), Napa cabbage type
  • Mild types with succulent stems - mixed together: Bok choi, Bomdong (var. glabra), Tatsoi (subsp. narinosa), Komatsuna (subsp. perviridis) etc.
  • Turnip (subsp. rapa)

Mustard greens (unknown species)

Brassica napus

  • Russian kales (subsp. pabularia)
  • Rutabaga, swedes (subsp. napobrassica syn. rapifera)
  • Crosses with B. oleracea separate

Raphanus sativus

  • Fodder, Oil (var. oleiformis)

Winter cress (Barbarea vulgaris)
White mustard (Sinapis alba)
Turkish rocket (Bunias orientalis). Perennial rapini-like vegetable
Dame’s rocket (Hesperis matronalis)
Cochlearia glastifolia
Rocket (Eruca vesicaria)

Apiaceae

Carrot (Daucus carota)
Garden angelica (Angelica archangelica)
Seombadi (Dystaenia takesimana)
Perennial leaf fennel (Foeniculum vulgare)

Polygonaceae

Sour things

Rhubarb (Rheum)
Sorrel (Rumex acetosa)
Rumex scutatus
Mountain sorrel (Oxyria digyna)
Fagopyrum esculentum

Not edible

  • Various bags, e.g. Atropa belladonna

Corn

  • Sweet
  • Pop
  • Grain in the broad sense - dent, flint, flour mixed together

Fabaceæ

Peas (Lathyrus oleracea)

  • Garden peas - for immature, green peas (subsp. sativum)
  • Field peas - dry peas (subsp. arvense)
  • Mangetout / Sugar peas - edible pods (subsp. macrocarpum). Includes snow peas, snap peas.
  • Determinate (dwarf) - maturing at the same time

Beans (P. vulgaris)

  • Bush
  • Pole (vine)
  • (Mix of bush + pole when unknown)

Pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan)
Carob (Ceratonia siliqua)
Chickpeas (Cicer arietinum)
Sweet pea (Lathyrus odoratus)
Lentils (Lens culinarus)
Runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus)
Lima bean (Phaseolus lunatus)
Fava beans (Vicia faba)
Cowpea (Vigna unguiculata)

Solanaceæ

Tomato

  • Excerted stigma (Big Hill etc), promiscuous types, spontaneous crosses
  • Species for breeding, e.g. habrochaites subsp. glabratum, subsp hirsutum
  • Inbreeding varieties super mix (at least 40-50 varieties Oct 2024)

Capsicum

  • Species separate
  • C. annuum: Hot chili (containing hot gene) and sweet peppers (Grossum group) separate
  • Rarities like a sweet C. baccatum

Aubergine (Solanum melongena)
Ethiopian bitter eggplant (Solanum aethiopicum)
TPS (True Potato Seed)
Tobacco (Nicotiana tabacum)

Allium

Allium cepa var. cepa
Allium cepa var. aggregatum
Spring onions (?)
Allium ampeloprasum (wild)
Leek - A. ampeloprasum Porrum-group

Separate Allium species
Allium schoenoprasum
Allium fistulosum
Allium tuberosum
Allium aflatunense
Allium ramosum
Allium babingtonii
Allium pskemense x fistulosum

Amaranthaceae

Amaranth - for seed (without hull)
Amaranth mix (unknown)

Spinach in the broad sense

Good king henry
Rumex patientia (technically not Amaranthaceae)
Spinach (Spinacia oleracea)
Garden orach (Atriplex hortensis) - all colors
Perennial vining spinach (Hablitzia tamnoides)
Tree spinach (Chenopodium giganteum)
Chenopodium formosanum

EDIT: Flour corn → Grain corn

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call that grain corn and it will be good…

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Hello there,
I am posting here what I posted on the thread about the Serendipity seed swap…

"As I went through the serendipity box, I realized that most of the diversity is gone. Most of the main crops are gone, and there is just several crops left with some diversity like moschatas, melons, some watermelons, and very little quantities of other things. Mostly is a lot of paper and bags at this point and little seeds.

Since I think that the people who are still waiting in the line would not benefit from receiving the whole box, I propose I divide what is left in small packages and send directly to 4 people who are next in line. I can make small packages up to 100 grams for 4 people to stay within my budget. And in this way everyone would get some seeds before planting time. Because the whole box would take several weeks before it arrives to the Netherlands for example.

If any of you who are in the line wants to receive bigger packages of seeds, because I can add more of my seeds from many personal grexes I was able to gather until now (100-250grams), I would kindly ask you to send some money for shipping because it is getting quite expensive these days to send a bigger package. And you will save 35+ euros because you will not be sending the box to the next person.

In terms of the serendipity box, I would say it has reached its limit for this season, and the diversity has drastically decreased because it seems we have been taking more than putting inside. I will also post on the thread about improving the serendipity seed exchange, and propose that we go in the direction of starter packs for everyone who wants to join the adaptation movement in Europe."

At this point I don’t have many ideas how to improve the serendipity box project because we can never control how much people take, and how much they put it. I think we would have to enrich the box with new seeds before I send it forward, but I think it is too late for that now since planting season has already started or will start soon. I can send what is left to 4 people at the same time in small packages and add some of my seeds to mix things up. They will get it much faster than waiting for the whole box.

Then I suggest we see in autumn or before how we could improve it when we’ll have fresh seeds, or we move forward with starter pack idea by @Hugo because it makes more sense especially for beginners.

Let me know any thoughts :slight_smile:
Happy planting season to everyone!

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I expected quite the opposite - too many seeds and box becoming bigger and heavier after each stop. Maybe there are too many beginners in the chain (like me).
Last season was the first season with keeping diversity and landraces in mind, so I do not even know for sure yet, whether my watermelons’ varieties crossed or not. I expect it will take 2 more seasons to see whether I have a worthy landrace to share.

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Yeah, that’s really interesting! The US box keeps getting bigger and heavier over time. I’m surprised to hear your box has gone the other way. I’m very curious about that.

With the US box, the pattern is how I’d expect: seeds of cool weather crops tend to run low in fall and get replenished in spring, and seeds of warm weather crops tend to run low in spring and get replenished in fall. (No surprise!) Seeds of everything else (such as trees) tend to get taken and replenished at a more or less steady rate.

Has the EU box contained a high percentage of warm weather crops, and a low percentage of cool weather crops and/or perennials and trees? If so, I can see spring being a time when it might get mostly depleted.

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So it has crashed! Already. Time to steer new members towards starter kits.
For now nothing is set up, except ad hoc at Telegram Adaptation Gardening channel.

Well at least people in line will get something thanks to you.

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When I got the box a couple of jumps before corn and tomatoes were pretty low. But there were like 200 envelopes to choose from, for my part that was a pretty awesome.

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For me the experience was totally contrary to Marcela. When I received the package this time it got more packages of species than last two times and the box was heavier, maybe 200+ envelopes? Probably the last two times when I received the box was like 1/4 of this one. At least for my part i did not finish any envelopes of seeds, so genetic diversity was still there.

Sure, the objective this time was different because most of the same species was packed in the same envelope instead of multiples, and it can have the impression that there are less diversity in general.
Maybe for corn and tomatoes the seeds were very low, but there were so many new species that it did not matter at all.

I think some people want some of this serendipity box different that was the original objective. Like all the varieties separated, and they do not want all mix together. For my part and most of the people here I think we just landrace the seeds and it makes total sense that is all mix together. And is also easier when you received the box. So for my part I will recommend to continue like now. I think this box is for getting diversity in terms of species and is not for advanced gardeners that only want some specifics genetics or traits from one specie.

The starter kits is a nice addition, but you will do starter with 200 species?

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We are not adding only landraces in the box, but any seeds we have surplus of - it can be our local heirlooms, or a grex (for example a mix of all the sweet pepper seeds we bought from somewhere or exchanged), or it can be seeds we collected in our gardens and our communities.
The idea is to have as much diversity as possible going around, not just landraces. The box is supposed to help us build our own grexes to increase genetic diversity of seeds we are planting, and we never know what might work for who.

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Yes, there are still many envelopes and bags… mostly few seeds inside or empty. The box was 3.6 kilos when it was at Cathy’s, and I received it it was 2.3 kilos. And half of the kilos is probably the box and all the bags. I can take a photo tomorrow to give you an idea of what I mean :slight_smile:
I was also able to get some seeds, but most of them I already got from people through direct seeds exchanges.

My point is that if we send the box to the next 4 people the way it is now, they will not benefit from much diversity, and there will not be enough for all of them if they are beginners and don’t have yet many seeds to put inside, which is perfectly understandable. If they are willing to risk it, sure, I will pass the box. Two people already reached out and are interested in just one or two things - like tomatoes.

Last year I received the serendipity box 2 times and both times it was very full of all kinds of seeds, and it was more than 3.5 kilos.

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You were lucky then.

Last two years when i recieve the box it was less than 1.5kg both times. With less packages than this time.

It depends on the people that are before you if they are new or they are in the end of season and got more seeds to share.

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If they only want one or two thinks the box is not for them. If they want to try a lot of new species is for them.

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Sure. I think that we would have to collect more seeds from different resources to enrich it before it is sent to the next person, or next 4 people who are pretty much beginners.
For me, the idea of diversity inside the serendipity box is diversity of crops and diversity inside of the crop family.
but maybe my experience is based on last year when I got the box twice and both times was really full.

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Hmm. If you’ve been mixing everything of every species together, that’s different from how we’ve been doing the US box. Perhaps that difference in organization is what has caused people to take a lot more seeds than they otherwise would from the EU box?

Pure theorizing here. I think, if it were me, and all the seeds of a given species were mixed into the same bag, I’d probably take a whole lot, just to make sure there were a few seeds mixed in there that I actually wanted.

Whereas if there were ten different bags, and I could tell eight didn’t match my goals, I’d leave those alone and take only a few seeds from each of the two bags that did. I also wouldn’t accidentally take back seeds that I had previously added myself.

I think you guys definitely need community grexes, so I’m thrilled that you’re setting those up. If you want to restart the EU Serendipity Seed Swap, maybe try keeping all the accessions separate? That would give the Serendipity Seed Swap box a different purpose from the community grexes, so they will complement each other rather than one being redundant.

Waxing philosophical here . . . maybe diversity of ideas and approaches is just as important to community as genetic diversity?

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