Lets do the "Brassica oleraceae" effect to other crops!

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@UnicornEmily

I suspect that, on average, every square mile of every ecosystem has something nifty happening genetically within it at any given time.

That might explain how I found an Albino Black Raspberry in an abondened forrested area between suburbs (It already got destroyed to built more housing) but at least I saved the seeds.

You can see how the Albino Color is present in unripe fruits of the normal black fruited type of Black Raspberry. It’s almost like it just doesn’t have the black fruit color genes turned on. The albino Raspberry tasted very Delicious!

I think I have a problem with restringing serendipity, I know it’s real but I still don’t fully resister it, almost like it’s still hard to believe

I also found out what happens when no Animal Picks Black Raspberry. They actually dry on the vine ready to collect seed, how convenient

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Yeah, and if the fruits go overripe and bake dry (which happens to berries in my hot, dry summers), you can still pick them, and they’re tasty dried fruits. I discovered that by accident this year. Yummy accident.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

Yummy accidents are my favorite kind of accidents

[Tathata (Dilan)]

This is such an important topic. I try to talk to gardeners in my area about this stuff and they just look at me funny.

I’ve been growing arugula for a few years now and find the flowers and flower stems quite tastey. At least early on they can be juicy and sweet but with a peppery bite. They get bitter after a while though.

I also really like the taste of kale seed pods. They are like a cross between a green bean and a brassica. I know there are varieties of radish that have been selected for seed pods.

Something about the idea of fennel broccoli sounds very intriguing to me. Ive got a patch of 4-5 year old bronze fennel. I havent tried to select it for anything. Any way of getting to a perennial broccoli would be devine.

Are squash and melon leaves and stems edible? For some reason I’ve always thought of them as toxic like tomatoes and peppers.

I would love to work on a may apple breading project. I have 10 wooded acres so anything that grows in full shade is more than welcome. I planted some a few years ago but they didnt take. My soil is sandy and I believe they like it moist. Could have been the problem.

[Tathata (Dilan)]

@VeggieSavage

I wonder if anyone has seen what non rooted parsley roots look like so we can compare side by side. I haven’t been able to find photos of regular Parsley Roots that aren’t specifically bred for larger roots. It’s almost like no one takes pictures of these things ?

I have lots curled parsley overwintering in the ground now. When the snow melts I will pull one up and take a picture of the root. To my recolection, the roots are very stringy.

I still don’t understand how you select a plant for its roots. You have to pull it up and taste the root, then put it back in the ground to go to seed? Seems very disruptive to the plant.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Tathata

This is such an important topic. I try to talk to gardeners in my area about this stuff and they just look at me funny.

They probably not ready or the idea isn’t resonating with them yet due to them not seeing the potential. There’s also a real possibility that we are Extremely Early & ahead of our time as many Plant Breeders have been before.

@Tathata

I’ve been growing arugula for a few years now and find the flowers and flower stems quite tastey. At least early on they can be juicy and sweet but with a peppery bite.

Awesome! I hope you can select for More Clustered flower stems like Broccoli. You may need to Cross Arugula with Broccoli or Cauliflower to speed run the Flower concentration trait. Eruca x Brassica is very likely possible because Brassica x Raphanus creates fertile offspring Brassicoraphanus.

Ever Noticed how Radish & Arugula Flowers look so similar? Did they evolve similarly? Could a Hybrid work between them? I think so for I see no reason why It can’t. Also I love Radish Greens but don’t like that spicy root (Unless it’s Daikon, that’s actually enjoyable cuz it’s not spicy).

@Tathata

I also really like the taste of kale seed pods. They are like a cross between a green bean and a brassica.

Awesome! Makes me want to try them but also are they better than Radish Pods? Are they more time-consuming to harvest compared to Radish Pods? And do you eat them raw or cooked via stir-fry?
Have you noticed diversity in the Brassica pod colors? It seems the more redder cultivars have that color extent to the pods aswell! So imagine Purple or Other colors bred too?

Just look at how long they can get & how Red/pruple they can be!

@Tathata

Something about the idea of fennel broccoli sounds very intriguing to me.

Me too! & the same extends to Wild Carrots (Daucus carrota). Some foragers even batter them in butter/oil & deep-fry the wild carrot flowers. There also seems to be different colors of Red, Pink & White flowers of wild carrot to select form. SO MUCH POTENTIAL, Mind can’t hold it in without exploding .

With Fennel, I was wondering why can the Big Florence Bulb type also come in different colors? Did you notice even the wilder or bronze fennel type still makes a bulb but it’s smaller? Forager Samuel Thayer uses them like The bjg cultivars too but finds the most tender inner leaves very delicious.
Just look at the color available, seems to range from Purple to Bronze color.

Let’s not forget there’s potential for Dill x Fennel Crosses to explore even more diveristy or flavors. From what I’ve heard, the hybrids didn’t taste good but It’s something I want to explore because I found Winged Fennel Seeds at my Local Chinese Grocery Store & Not Winged Dill Seeds from my Indian Grocery Store (Make it make sense, the ID Traits aren’t consistent). Perhaps it was already done & reselected for fennel or dill flavor?

@Tathata

Are squash and melon leaves and stems edible? For some reason I’ve always thought of them as toxic like tomatoes and peppers.

Yes, only if the Leaves & Stem aren’t bitter. The Toxin in Squash (Cucurbita spp.) & Melon (Cucumis melo) leaves/stems is Cucurbitacin which is easily dectacble by the strong/loud/obnoxious/In-Your-Face kind of bitter thus making it a very well behaved toxin.

For Squash, there are some varieties bred for edible leaves/stems, Tetra Squash is one. Squash yields better Greens because the leaves are often bigger & more succulent (Of course it’s the fast growing tender tips that you want to eat). Melons leaves are often smaller, more thinner & have less food value but are edible if they don’t taste bitter. Personally I enjoy Squash Greens more than Melon Greens (But don’t let me stop you with breeding Melon for Greens, I want to encourage as much as this kind of breeding as possible!).

Tomato & Peppers leaves on the other hand are toxic, however Black Nightshade (Solanum nigrum) & Gogiberry (Lycium barbarum) have varieties bred for edible leaves that taste delicious!

What is crazy however, Forager Chef tried actually cooking Tomato Leaves !? (He talks about it at 3:02. He says he likes them better as an herb!? Idk what’s going on here, maybe the same compunds that cause toxicity but in small amounts adds flavor?

Eating Black Nightshade Berries and Greens (Solanum nigrum and friends)

@Tathata

I would love to work on a may apple breading project.

Awesome! I hope you try doing Intergeneric hybrids too! Apples theoretically can cross with any other Maleae Tribe genus like Apples x Pears. Amelanchier x Sorbus happens naturally, Sorbus x Pyrus created Shipova, Aronia x Sorbus created Sorboaronia which was bred by Russian Plant Breeder Ivan Michurin.

@Tathata

I have 10 wooded acres so anything that grows in full shade is more than welcome. I planted some a few years ago but they didnt take.

I could be the thick shade, if you can try thinning out the canopy to availablize more sunlight. Few plants do well under shade, especially fruit producing. Mayapples may grow in shade but they won’t fruit well (Or at all). Despite that Wineberry (Rubus phoenicolasius) is able to fruit well even in thick shade so if you want fruits, shift your focus towards wineberry. Spicebush (Lindera benzoin) also fruits well in thick shade & makes a great spice/oily berry. If you want Greens/Herbs & other forrest veggies, plenty that will do well in thick shade (Often these are Spring Ephemeral plants, where they take advantage of the open canopy in early spring to grow but then die back once summer rolls in & Tree Canopy is shaded). Here’s some worth trying (Not all die back in summer).

• Wild Ramps (Allium triccocum) : Delicious Onion Greens with Bulb (Flowers edible too).
• Spring Beauty (Claytonia virginica & caroliniana) : Edibles Leaves & Flowers that taste mild. They also make Delicious Edible Tubers that taste like mini Potatoes but softer & sweeter.
• Sweet Cicely (Osmorhiza spp.) : So much diversity! O. longistylis taste sweet like Anise/Licorice. Among my favorite wild greens.
• Wood Nettle (Laportea canadensis) : I hope to forage for this one this year. Sam Thayer says they’re are among the best wild greens, use them like Spinach (Cooking destorys stings).
• Toothworts (Cardamine lacinata or Dentaria spp.) : Spicy Mustard greens with tubers that have strong HOT Horseradish Flavor.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Tathata

When the snow melts I will pull one up and take a picture of the root.

Thank you! It be very interesting to see how the roots were domesticated, really makes ya wonder how they did it? I appreciate the plant breeders who selected that trait somehow. If we learn how they did it, we can do it with other crops too! Imagine Fennel roots!?

@Tathata

You have to pull it up and taste the root, then put it back in the ground to go to seed? Seems very disruptive to the plant.

My exact questions & thinking. Perhaps 1 plant is sacrificed so you can assume to the taste of the rest form the same patch (But what if you made crazy hybrids & you’ve now just ate the best tasting plant you wanted seeds from)? Perhaps this is easier in winter when the plant is dormant (Winter also makes nearly all root crops taste sweeter)?
I also wonder, can you select for root flavor but selecting for the shoot flavor? For example in Carrots, the first year they put all the energy in the root so it can send that stored energy into the flowering shoot. I’ve read Forager Sam Thayer really enjoys eating the peeled shoot of wild carrots, saying they taste like Carrot but sweeter & more tender (According to him, the peeled shoot is the better vegetable form the root because the root is stringy due to the woody core). But is the flavor the same? If so, this would make selection easy. I’d say the ones that make bigger shoots will have bigger roots (Both due to genetics & enviromental conditions).

I’ve never grown carrots so perhaps there’s a simpler way I can found out as I play around with the plants.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Yup, squash leaves and stems are completely edible! In case you’re interested in trying Tetra squash for yourself:

Tetra Squash Seeds

I’ve heard of people eating tomato leaves before. In fact, there are people who really love them. Because of this, it seems likely to me that sometimes domesticated tomato varieties (perhaps even most of them?) that have leaves that are just as edible as the leaves of black nightshade – which is to say, marginally edible to some people, and completely edible to other people who aren’t sensitive to a low dose of whatever toxins are in them.

[Tathata (Dilan)]

@VeggieSavage

Makes me want to try them but also are they better than Radish Pods? Are they more time-consuming to harvest compared to Radish Pods? And do you eat them raw or cooked via stir-fry?

They taste similar to radish pods although I’ve never grown the radishes selected for pods. They are somewhat small and time consuming to pick but plentiful. I eat them raw, steamed and stir fried.

@VeggieSavage

Have you noticed diversity in the Brassica pod colors?

Yes, I’ve got light green, dark green and slightly purplish pods.

@VeggieSavage

Did you notice even the wilder or bronze fennel type still makes a bulb but it’s smaller?

Yes, I usually just use the leaves and seeds for flavoring but the bulbs are good too. It just kills the plant when you harvest the bulb. I really like their perrenial behavior so I hate to kill them.

@VeggieSavage

Let’s not forget there’s potential for Dill x Fennel Crosses

I grew lots of dill last year and it was maybe 10 feet from my fennel so I wouldn’t be surprised if it crossed. Would love to have perrenial dill.

@VeggieSavage

For Squash, there are some varieties bred for edible leaves/stems

Good to know. I grow lots of other leafy greens so I’ll stick with fruit production.

@VeggieSavage

I could be the thick shade

@VeggieSavage

Here’s some worth trying

Thanks! Ive got ramps, sweet cicely and stinging nettle. Would love to try spring beauty. Never heard of toothworts. I like spicy!

@VeggieSavage

Perhaps 1 plant is sacrificed so you can assume to the taste of the rest form the same patch

I believe Joseph mentioned somewhere, digging beside a radish root and shaving off a peice with a knife to try it. Then reburring if you like it. Still a bit disruptive but probably the best you can do.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Tathata

They are somewhat small and time consuming to pick but plentiful. I eat them raw, steamed and stir fried.

hmm… is there anyway to breed them for quicker harvest? I’m thinking if you could easily just strip them off the flowering stem, would make it efficient. Maybe if the pods are huge like with Green Beans, maybe it will make it more worthwhile even if the easily strip off pods trait can’t be bred in.

When do you pick them? At what stage of tenderness? Brassica pods feel like they become stringy quick.

@Tathata

It just kills the plant when you harvest the bulb. I really like their perrenial behavior so I hate to kill them.

Really? Even if you leave the roots in ground? I though it would just re-sprout again if you cut it above the roots like with Cabbages. Also do the wilder/bronze type form multiple bulbs?

@Tathata

Would love to have perrenial dill.

That would be super! Will it still make seeds if perennial? It’s the roots that remain perennial while above ground parts biannual, right?

@Tathata

Never heard of toothworts. I like spicy!

Plenty of Mustards! And many different species (or varieties depending on how you want to count them) available thus lots of diversity to work with. And they maybe crossable with Hairy Bittercress & Cuckoo Flower (Cardamine spp.).

@Tathata

Then reburring if you like it. Still a bit disruptive but probably the best you can do.

Maybe if you do this during the dormant season, it won’t be so bad? Still would be great if selection for good tasting stem also selects for good tasting root as a bonus.

[Tathata (Dilan)]

@VeggieSavage

if you could easily just strip them off the flowering stem

Problem is they’re not ready at the same time. You have to get them when the pods first form so they are tender. There are usually lots of flowers still on the stalk.

@VeggieSavage

I though it would just re-sprout again if you cut it above the roots like with Cabbages.

I guess ive never tried cutting above the roots. Ive always just pulled it up. Something to try.

@VeggieSavage

It’s the roots that remain perennial while above ground parts biannual, right?

My fennel puts out seed every year. Ive also go some parsley and brussel sprouts that have come back for 3 or 4 years and keep putting out more seed.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Tathata

There are usually lots of flowers still on the stalk.

Is that trait breedable or do we accept it as part of the species?
If so bigger/longer pods to make picking more worthwhile is probably the direction to lean towards in breeding.

@Tathata

My fennel puts out seed every year. Ive also go some parsley and brussel sprouts that have come back for 3 or 4 years and keep putting out more seed.

WHAT!??! You achieved a Perennial Parsley & Brussels Sprouts? HOW!?
Did you cross Brussels Sprouts with Perennial Kale to get the Perennial trait transferred into Brussels sprouts?
How does your parsley go to seed but not Die after doing so? Do the roots remain perennial sending up another annual flowering shoot or could it be that your parsley & Fennel just self-sow so effectively that they function like perennials?

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Perenniality may have just shown up in the brussels sprouts population he has. Brussels sprouts are biennial, and most people kill them to harvest them, so it seems plausible to me that perenniality could be a trait available within a few individuals in most brussels sprouts populations that is frequently overlooked.

Especially since Brassica oleracea is highly prone to inbreeding depression, so even heirloom varieties tend to be grown with large population sizes to make sure to maintain genetic diversity. And of course, there could always be a few unnoticed accidental random crosses with other varieties that increase genetic diversity.

Of course, he may have started from a grex that includes perenniality on purpose, such as Experimental Farm Network’s perennial kale mix.

As for parsley, isn’t it normally perennial? My neighbor has a parsley patch she occasionally harvests. It has big old tap roots. It comes back every year. Maybe they’re self-resowing biennials? That might make them seem effectively perennial without actually being it.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@UnicornEmily

Perenniality may have just shown up in the brussels sprouts population he has. Brussels sprouts are biennial, and most people kill them to harvest them

Very interesting… We seriously are over-looking such incrededible potential!? Talk about serpendipity Brassica .
Why do people kill the entire plant to harvest brussles sprouts? Does it make it more easier on your back to pick each brussle sprout when you pull the entire plant by it’s roots?
What happens if you no do that & just pick the side shoots while keeping the plant alive? It goes to seed & dies right after like a true biannual? But Perenniality shows up some how!? Even without Perennial Kale triats?

@UnicornEmily

Especially since Brassica oleracea is highly prone to inbreeding depression

Oh my… is this the cost of keeping a certain phenotype true to type? Large population sizes sound like a lot of work to maintain.

@UnicornEmily

Of course, he may have started from a grex that includes perenniality on purpose, such as Experimental Farm Network’s perennial kale mix.

Oh! This makes a lot of sense. If it’s that easy for perenniality to be transferred into other Brassica oleracea Cultivar groups while still maintaining that growth form, then we’ve got a LOT of fun Plant Breeding to do! We can make Cabbage, Kohlrabi, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Chinese White Flower Kale, all Perennial.
But why stop there?
If we can also transfer the Perenniality trait form B. oleracea Perennial Kale, than we can also transfer that triat into other Brassica Species. Imagine Perennial, Bok-Choy, Napa Cabbage, Mizuna, Komatuna Mustard Greens, Rapini, Head Mustard, Swollen Stem Mustard, Big Red Leaf Mustard, Bud Mustard Sprouts, even Perennial Ethiopian Kale.
Why stop at Brassica, we can go intergeneric and make Perennial Arugula, Perennial Radish Greens & Pods, Highway Mustard and many more genera!

@UnicornEmily

As for parsley, isn’t it normally perennial? My neighbor has a parsley patch she occasionally harvests. It has big old tap roots. It comes back every year.

Seriously!? WHA??? I thought it was Biannual like the rest of the Carrot family Veggies?
Is your neighbor harvesting the leaves? Is she growing a Root Parsley (In that case Harvesting the root kills the plant thus no Perenniality). If so could this make all Big Fat Root Cultivars of Root Parsley Perennial? Or maybe her’s is special. I’ve never heard of a perennial Parsley.

[Tathata (Dilan)]

@VeggieSavage

Is that trait breedable or do we accept it as part of the species?

I have no idea.

@VeggieSavage

WHAT!??! You achieved a Perennial Parsley & Brussels Sprouts? HOW!?

The brussel sprouts were originally from a packet of Catskills brussel sprouts but I’ve also had some Long Island brussel sprouts go 3-4 years so I don’t think it’s the variety.

My theory is it’s a combination of no till, deep mulch and our heavy lake affect snow that blankets everything before the very cold weather comes in.

I also just have the mindset/intention of making things perrenial. That might be a little woo woo and not very science-based though lol.

I did get some EFN perrenial kale mix but I just planted that for the first time last year so it hasn’t had a chance to cross in yet.

Most of the parsley does die after seeding out but a few have survived. It’s a curled parsley. It also self seeds but the volunteers don’t do well in the mulch.

I’ve also had celery go 4 years but it just never seeded.

Had one swiss chard come back a third year but died in the spring freeze/thaw cycles.

The snow is finally starting to melt here so we will see what made it through this year. So far I can see some spinach I planted in the fall has survived. Pretty sure that’s supposed to be an annual. It hasn’t gone to seed yet though.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Yuuuuuuup. My thinking precisely. I plan to actively seek out perenniality in all my brassicas, and I don’t even plan to bother to segregate them by species. I don’t care what their phenotype is supposed to be, or their species name, or their growth habit – if they’re tasty and productive and perennial, they will get their seeds saved and sown everywhere! Meanwhile, I’ll harvest leaves all winter and late flowerbuds in spring (the early ones will be allowed to go to seed so I can harvest seeds). Lotsa yummy food. Muah ha ha.

No need to kill a plant when you can always chop off a branch, eat all the tender parts, and then shove any unpalatably tough portion of the stalk into the ground to see if it will clone itself for you . . . 'Cause why not? Seriously!

I dunno if Hamburg parsley is biennial or perennial, but I know it’s a variety of parsley that was bred for a big, fat, carrot-like root. It’s probably biennial. Nevertheless, big fat taproot parsleys certainly exist.

My brussels sprout x kohlrabi cross was Long Island brussels sprout x Early White Vienna kohlrabi. The kohlrabi were definitely only biennial, but one of the six Long Island brussel sprouts stayed alive and green all summer after flowering and making seeds. It died during the second winter, so maybe it was only biennial, but since it didn’t die after making seeds, like all the rest did . . . I would say perenniality was probably something it was hoping to achieve.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@Tathata

The brussel sprouts were originally from a packet of Catskills brussel sprouts but I’ve also had some Long Island brussel sprouts go 3-4 years so I don’t think it’s the variety.

WOW! So maybe Perennial Brussles Sprouts are more likely than we think & most just kill the plant to harvest it thus never found out their perennial.
Do you think the Purple Brussels Sprouts could also be just as perennial?

@Tathata

My theory is it’s a combination of no till, deep mulch and our heavy lake affect snow that blankets everything before the very cold weather comes in.

OH!? So the heavy blanket of snow acts as way to protect from harsh cold winds? also Brussel Sprouts do well with no Till & Deep Mulch!? Weren’t Brassica species who don’t form mychorrizal connections (Due to having the whole anti-fungal thing going on )?
However in some uncommon cases, nature finds a way to get Brassica adapted to no till, deep mulch settings & form connections with Mychorriza somewhow. Is this a recent evolution? Sure feels like it & does Perennial Kale form Mychorrizal conectiosn too?

This was always my fear, when Matt Powers talked about his Amaranths plants going away when his soil improved & i’m like “Nooo…! I want my Amaranth plants to thrive on good soil too”. I was scared I’d have to till the soil just to keep Amaranth alive & same with other Plants like Brassicas.

@Tathata

I also just have the mindset/intention of making things perrenial.

YES YES YES Awesome!!! I have the same goal so Please continue in that goal, make everything you can a perennial (Or at least a self sowing annual that functions like a Perennial). Let’s all get together as the GTS comunity and make all the Brassica crop species perennial too!

Glad you got the EFN Perrenial Kale mix, me too! Please let me know how it grows & take pictures of what shows up. I have no land but want to see how the seeds I bough would grow if they had been planted.
Plus super excited to see how they cross with your brussels sprouts. Imagine Pink or fully white colored Brussels Sprouts!? Just look at how colorful Ornamental Kale Stems can be.

@Tathata

Most of the parsley does die after seeding out but a few have survived. It’s a curled parsley.

Very interesting, few survived & they aren’t self sown plants since they would do poorly in mulch. Hmm… You’ve got an interesting rariety, first time I’ve ever heard of a perennial Parsley. You’ve got to share those seeds, maybe we can breed pereniality trait to be true to type. Having Perennial Parsley is awesome! How long has your been perennial?

@Tathata

I’ve also had celery go 4 years but it just never seeded.

WHOA!? Hmm… maybe it’s only perennial because it forgot how to go to seed?

@UnicornEmily

Yuuuuuuup. My thinking precisely. I plan to actively seek out perenniality in all my brassicas, and I don’t even plan to bother to segregate them by species.

EPIC!!! YES YES YES!!! This the kind of Attitude I like & more encourage gardeners/Plant Breeders should have it. You are going to discover so many Incredible Plant combos this way (Like the Kohlrabi x Brussels Sprouts was EPIC).

@UnicornEmily

Lotsa yummy food. Muah ha ha.

That’s my exact attitude! Completely new veggies will be made thru such diverse crossing! Plus you can always reselect for any phenotype/Growth Habit you want later.

@UnicornEmily

No need to kill a plant when you can always chop off a branch, eat all the tender parts

Love it! Can’t you also just leave the plant roots intact? I mean maybe both leave in ground & also clone the roots elsewhere can make some interesting combos to cross-pollinate other brassicas with. I’m thinking like how Perennial kale has both seeds & cuttings saved. Imagine if Brussels Sprout Cuttings can be replanted the same way (I bet they can!).
Saw this Youtuber grow Broccoli plant form a grocery store broccoli.

ブロッコリーの茎を植えると、またブロッコリーが出来ます…【再生栽培】(リボべジ) / How to regrow broccoli from stem

And this one too!

HOW TO REGROW BROCCOLI FROM SCRAPS

Seriously makes me think, we should do this with more Brassica Veggies. Imagine we can try this with Orange Cauliflower?

@UnicornEmily

one of the six Long Island brussel sprouts stayed alive and green all summer after flowering and making seeds.

Wow! That’s incredible, did you save seeds from it? I’m excited to see what Perennial Kale Genetics will do there! Please take a picture of that Kohlrabi x Brussles Sprouts hybrid. I haven’t seen any photos of what that even looks like (I don’t think it even exists online )

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Brassica species have to be able to form mycorrhizal relationships, because they seem to do so with elm oyster mushrooms (Hypsizygus ulmarius). Or at least, when grown among elm oyster mushrooms, they tend to have yields four to six times higher.

I read that a few years ago and have it in my notes; I went hunting for the original source, and can’t find it. If you can find the paper it came from, neato. Either way, I plan to test it out at some point.

Elm oyster mushroom (which is not the same as oyster mushroom – completely different genus) is an edible mushroom that is parasizes elm trees and helps brassicas grow way better. Yes, please!

I haven’t bought spawn for that species yet because I don’t want to introduce it while I have an enormous sixty-foot Siberian elm ten feet away from my house. I don’t want to risk that tree getting sick and falling onto my roof. But whenever my neighbor can afford to have that tree cut down, I would like to introduce elm oyster mushroom spawn, in order to simultaneously weaken the swarm of Siberian elm suckers that keep invading everything, and to help my brassicas grow better. Yes, please!

Yes, I saved seeds from the Long Island brussels sprout plant that survived flowering, as well as the other two that survived their first winter to make seeds. I didn’t save them separately; they were all mixed together.

I shared some of those seeds, and sowed most of the rest, in August 2023. I wound up with about 200 little itty bitty sprouts, 6 of which survived the winter, 4 of which got quite pleasantly big. All six plants did fine through my extremely hot, dry summer, although I’ll note that I sowed them in full shade and watered them twice a week.

All six plants are still alive now. They have big, fat kohlrabi-like stems and a lot of brussels sprouts-like underarm buds. I was hoping I would get the best of both worlds, and it looks like I did! The leaves taste good; nothing special, but good. That’s the only part of them I have tasted so far. I’m hoping they will flower and make seeds this spring.

Obviously I plan to share seeds . . .

I have three other Brassica plants scattered through my yard. In my orchard are a Brassica rapa and a Brassica napus. They sprouted in spring 2024. The former is a small plant, probably a Red Russian kale. The taste is good. The latter is quite big, and it has the tastiest leaves in my garden. I reallllllly hope that one makes seeds this spring.

The last plant is definitely a perennial kale, which sprouted in spring 2023 and happily survived and kept on trucking after making seeds in spring 2024. Yesssssssss. (Steeples fingers.) It came from the Going to Seed 2024 kale+ mix . It makes lots of flowerbuds in spring – there were plenty for me to eat, as well as plenty to save seeds from. The stems were delicious, too. The flowerbuds and stems taste exactly like excellent broccoli. I am very, very fond of that plant. Its one downside is that scale aphids love to cover it all summer, which is not my favorite thing in the world. But it survives that and is scale-less in winter and early spring, when it’s tastiest to eat anyway, so I can forgive it for that fault.

Especially since it’s obviously very heat and drought tolerant – it’s been in full sun all summer with no shade and very little water for two summers in a row, and it was my only survivor in those conditions from that whole kale+ pack. It still tastes pretty good in summer, too; just some bitterness because of the heat. And I have to wash off the scale aphids. (Okay, I don’t have to – scale aphids are perfectly edible, and essentially extra protein. It’s just that they have a strong flavor. Not an unpleasant one, just strong, and I prefer the flavor of broccoli.)

Anyway, that’s my favorite brassica plant right now. It doesn’t offer any obvious special phenotypes, so it’s probably considered a kale, but what a great kale! Whoever donated that seed to the 2023 kale+ mix, thank you thank you!

[Tathata (Dilan)]

@VeggieSavage

Do you think the Purple Brussels Sprouts could also be just as perennial?

Never tried purple brussel sprouts. Could be.

@VeggieSavage

Weren’t Brassica species who don’t form mychorrizal connections

I’ve thought about this a lot since reading Teaming With Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels. He talks a lot about the bacteria to fungi ratio in his book and specifically mentions brassicas not forming relationships with fungi.

I would need to dig into the research but my theory is when these studies were done on brassicas, they were only done on 1st year brassicas and not on 2nd year or older brassicas. My idea is maybe the relationship doesn’t form until later in their life cycle.

I’m not a scienties and I don’t have a microscope so it’s all just conjecture for now. Lowenfels does mention I believe it was Aspen trees, that spend their early years not forming relationships with fungi, but forming them in later years as the forest matures.

@VeggieSavage

I was scared I’d have to till the soil just to keep Amaranth alive

I doubt it. I’ve got lambs quarter and pig weed popping up all over. I believe they are both amaranths.

@VeggieSavage

Having Perennial Parsley is awesome! How long has your been perennial?

I had 3 year old parsley for the first time last year. It’s still under the snow so we’ll find out soon if it comes back again.

[VeggieSavage (Professor Porcupine)]

@UnicornEmily

Brassica species have to be able to form mycorrhizal relationships,

Awesome! That’s exactly what I want to happen with my Brassicas and all other Brassicaceae weeds I grow for food! I’m just waiting for Alliaria petiolata (Garlic Mustard) to also do it & not die (I really enjoy them as a seed crop, great taste to sprinkle).

@UnicornEmily

I didn’t save them separately; they were all mixed together.

No worries, what matters is such incredible genetics have been saved! Do you thinking eating the flowers wou;d’ve had any effect on the perenniality?

I wonder, if the Brussels Sprout genetics would make the Kohlrabi stem not taste so good & be too fibrous to eat.

What Brassica rapa do you have planted?

@UnicornEmily

It came from the Going to Seed 2024 kale+ mix

Awesome! So glad I got that mix, I’m excited to grow them. Perennial Kale FTW!

@UnicornEmily

It still tastes pretty good in summer, too; just some bitterness because of the heat.

Interesting, how does the bitterness taste? Cuz Brassica oleracea has no spicyness/pungency right? Is it like Lettuce/Dandelion Bitter?

@Tathata

they were only done on 1st year brassicas and not on 2nd year or older brassicas. My idea is maybe the relationship doesn’t form until later in their life cycle.

I like that kind of thinking, very good theories! I just wonder what it looks like in perennial kale, most annuals don’t form strong mychorrizal conections cuz they don’t need to, right?
Meanwhile Broccoli & Cauliflower are true annuals (Only Purple Broccoli is Biannual). Maybe those cultivars form less mychorrizal conections?

@Tathata

I doubt it. I’ve got lambs quarter and pig weed popping up all over. I believe they are both amaranths.

Indeed, both are Amaranthaceae family but belong to completely different subfamilies. Problem is pig-weed is just a use-all generic name that I don’t understand what genus it refers to (I assume it’s an Amaranthus spp. but it’s also used on Chenopodium spp.).