Multiple Purpose Purple polebeans

Adaptation Projects
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So, I have a polebean variety called Dasinger Blaue that I like very much. As the name implies, it is a purple variety. I love the dark veins on the leaves, the purple flowers and the fact that I actually find the beans on the vine! I got this variety in 2021, so I have planted it for 2 years (this year is the third) and so far it has been reliable. It has stayed healthy in 2021, a very wet summer here, when the bushbeans really struggled, it took last years drought in stride. In short, I really love this bean and I donā€™t want to mess it up. Since it is already so great I feel it would make a great base for a landrace. Do I try other varieties in isolation and if I like them, add them to the Dasinger and just have a population mix of varieties I like? Or do I just add some varieties next year and plant them all intermingled? I definitely have enough seed saved of them that i can come back to the original if I donā€™t like where the landrace is going. The beans had some green pods in 2022, I donā€™t know if it was environmental or genetic. I just picked all the green pods (not very many) early and only took seeds from pods that kept the color. Additionally, the bean pods loose some color when drying down. This is no problem for me, since they get lighter in color (white base with purple streaks, which is also very visible against the foliage).
I know that beans have a low crossing rate, but if the individual varieties are great, should I care that the actual landrace is developing very slowly?
One way to make the development of the landrace faster would be to choose varieties with distinct seed, so I can find the F2 and give them preferential treatment in repanting. For example, the Dasinger has beige seeds, if I plant for example an Cherokee trail of tears which has black seeds, I should be able to find F2-plants, no?

My goals for use:

  • a bean that is good for fresh eating ( Dasinger :white_check_mark:)
  • a bean that is good for dried pods (testing this year for the Dasinger)
  • a bean with good seeds for stews etc (testing with the Dasinger)
  • can you think of another use?

My goals for plant:

  • healthy, vigorous plants ( Dasinger :white_check_mark:, but can always be improved)
  • ripens over a long time, so we are not overwhelmed with beans to process (Dasinger :white_check_mark:)
  • stringless pods (Dasinger semi- :white_check_mark:, could certainly be better, young they are very tender, when the pods get broad, they get some strings)

Criteria breeding partners:

  • Purple, blue or red beans with white, black, brown etc. seeds (just not beige)
  • Ideally multi-purpose
  • Ideally stringless

Potential breeding partners (has to be available in Switzerland):

  • Cherokee trail of tears: more infos needed
  • Blauhilde: stringless, seed color quite similar to Dasinger
  • Berner Landfrauen: green/purple striped, seed color unknown, for fresh eating and drying
  • Borlotti: red striped, red and white seeds, for dry beans
  • Blaue von Adliswil (Pro Specie Rara, purple pods, brown seeds, stringless, for drying, freezing and cooking the pods)
  • Kaiser Friedrich: pink pods and dark seeds (black and dark brown), fo cooking the pods
  • Fasƶi Grisoni: purple striped on green background, seeds black speckled on brown, maily for cooking the pods

Questions:

  • Has anybody an polebean variety they can recomend to me?
  • Have I forgotten something important?
  • Are there more uses for the beans?

Dasinger blaue pods 2022
Dasinger blaue pods 20221380Ɨ1034 303 KB

Dasinger blaue seeds 2022
Dasinger blaue seeds 20221380Ɨ1034 430 KB

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Yes, that ā€œshouldā€ work. Cherokee Trial of Tears in my garden also seems more prone to crossing than most beans. Another black seed bean that crosses more readily is Ideal Market, but it is green rather than purple pod. Actually, some beans marketed here in the US as CTT also have green pods.

When it comes to crossing different colored seeds, it isnā€™t as cut and dry as it may seem. Two tan beans will not necessarily produce a tan bean. Especially in the F3, lots of different colors may show up. Same with pod or flower colors. Crossing the same with the same isnā€™t a guarantee youā€™ll get the same in future generations.

If there is a way to predict what youā€™ll get in successive generations; I donā€™t have a clue what it is.

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My recommendations for varieties to keep an eye out for:
Blue Coco - very tall pole bean, purple beans, flattened tan seeds, our absolute favorite ā€œgreenā€ bean, nice as a dry bean - developed by French colonists in Coco river area of Honduras/Nicaragua

Rattlesnake - also very tall pole bean, green beans with red streaks, very good green bean and good dry bean, more heat and drought tolerant than most p. vulgaris.

Rio Zape aka Hopi String Bean aka Mawiwijwa - 1 meter tall pole bean, green beans with dark haze, green beans are tasty when small, do get stringy, one of our all-time favorite dry beans, more heat and drought tolerant than most p. Vulgaris

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Carol Deppe described bean uses somewhere.
Green pods
Shelly beans - eaten as green seeds, like green peas
Dried bean seed.
Each of these has slightly different desirable characteristics, so you might like to stick with your favourite use, and select other beans that meet that criterion to incorporate into your project, so you donā€™t have select out the undesirable qualities in the future.
Green pods - you probably want slow development of the beans inside, to extend the tender green pod phase, and no strings. - like Blue Lake which is an old commercial variety.
Shellies - you would like a bean that develops green seeds quickly, then holds them green for a long period before drying down to maximize the fresh harvest period. you would like them to shell easily.
Dry beans - you want quick development of the seeds in the pods and quick maturity. you also want them easy to crush or shell - Not like Blue Lake which is full of tenacious mebranes and is a real pain to shell.

If you bean is performing really well in you conditions perhaps you could focus your attention on another crop, and just enjoy it as is. or perhaps do it as a side project in a small plot. a small separation should be enough to keep your original line ā€˜pureā€™.

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Thank you all for your feedback! If I understand you correctly, @MarkReed you say that I donā€™t need to worry about crossing beans which seedcolors are too similar, because in the crosses new colors will propably show up anyway and Iā€™ll see then which ones are the crosses? Concerning the pod colors: I am quite flexible. I love the look of the Dasinger and I like that I can see the pods better when they are purple against the green leaves. This is important to me, because then I have a better overview, when I can pick again. As long as the pods have some striking color, ie. NOT green, I am happy. maybe Iā€™ll have to select out green pods again, by eating them all and only saving seeds from pods with oder colors?

Since I have used the Dasinger primarily for green beans and found them suitable for the task, but not perfect, I could let them cross first with the Cherokee trail of tears. Firstly, because you say, that these beans have a higher than normal crossing rate and I hope this translates to the offspring. Secondly because, the Cherokee can be used as snap beans and dry beans. Then, when I have this population, I could add other beans with improved pod characteristics, like staying stringless longer and hopefully obtain crosses again.

At this point I probably have to plant each seed in way that I can distinguish which pods are on which plant, so I can evaluate the pod qualtity and only save sees from non stringy plants. Then I can just periodically add new varieties to improve the genetic diversity and robustness. Thank you @APUCommunityGarden for the reccomendations. It seems like Rattlesnake should be available to me and more heat tolerance certainly sounds important for the future. I especially like, that it has the same uses as the Cherokee, so at this point my landrace would propably be a dual purpose beanā€¦Thank you @gregg_muller for your important considerations. With your explanation it seems that my bean is already dual purpose, since the young beans are tender while the ripe pods are very easy to shell. It is however decidedly not a bean for shellies (this use is new to me) since the pods get fleshy quite quickly, the seeds inside however develop somewhat slower, so to shell them would be a terrible wasteā€¦So i will focus on this two uses for now and probably try drying the green pods, which is traditional here in Switzerland.

Timetable:
2023: test how Dasinger are as dried seed, more information about crossing partners
2024: plant with partner 1 (as of now: cherokee), hopefully obtain crosses
2025: plant F1 crosses, as well as Dasinger and Cherokee all together, obtain more crosses (F1 and F2)
2026: plant crosses in a way that allows evaluation of pod quality, save seed from crosses with good pod quality, evaluate dried beans for cooking quality
2027: plant seeds (Probaly F1, F2 and F3 at this point) from satisfying crosses all together, evaluate them together, save seeds
2028: Add Rattlesnake, Blauhilde or other beans with known good pod quality, hopefully obtain crosses
2029: Grow all seeds from 2028 together.

Does this sound reasonable?

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Well, I think mostly what Iā€™m saying is that it is very hard to predict what you will get from any bean cross. Also, even with those that seem to cross more easily, the crossing rate is still pretty low. The fact that you like to eat green beans, as do I, works against you in finding crosses because the chances are high that you will eat any crossed seed without ever knowing it existed. I didnā€™t start finding crosses until I started growing lots of beans for dry use.

Besides seed color there are lots of other ways they vary. Vine growth habit, pod color, flower color, pod size, pod shape, pod stringiness, stress tolerance and of course flavor both as green beans and as dry beans.

Not really, it sounds like a lot of trouble and with crossing rates (unless you do hand pollinations) being so low, it will be hard to make progress. Iā€™d recommend as a first step to simply acquire as many different beans as you can and plant them all, even if they may not (by description) meet all of your preferences. In a year or two your climate, soil and growing methods will highlight those that grow and produce well for you and eliminate the rest.

Once you have a diverse group that meet the first and most important criteria, that they actually produce for you, you can start trying to move them more toward your flavor and use preferences. One way Iā€™ve found that works fairly well (but still at a low rate) is to plant a single vine of one completely and closely surrounded by others and then plant ALL of the seed from that one vine the next year. Since you already have your Dasinger that you like you could plant a single vine of it with others, or the opposite, plant a single vine of another in a patch of it.

If you have access to a large variety to start with you can be a bit picky from the start and only include those that (by description) have qualities that you like. If not, then I would plant whatever I could get my hands on. What I mean by (by description) is what a catalog or someone else says about a variety of anything, is very often not the case once you put it in your own soil.

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We grow Rattlesnake, our fav green pod bean.

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Mark, thank you very much for your feedback. You are right, the fact that I like to eat green beans seriously hampers the breeding Process. And you are right, my process is quite complicated. So, new timetable:

2023: take seeds from Dasinger, collect information about breeding partners
2024: Plant about 10 to 20 breeding partners to evaluate them, each variety on a designated pole, so I can see how they do. Evaluate them for health and pod quality. Save seeds from all that are satisfying enough.
2025: Repeat 2024 with the saved seeds

This way, the new varieties have 2 years to adapt to my location and I can rogue out those that donā€™t fit the project at all.

2026: Plant each variety on a seperate pole with one Dasinger vine. I put about 10 seeds per pole, so for example, 9 rattlesnake seeds and one Dasinger (from 2023). Since they are visually quite different, I should have no problem to distinguish them. Leave as you said, all the Dasinger pods alone and hope that the pods contain some crosses. Collect all Dasinger seed and some from the other varieties (for example Rattlesnake), while eating most of the Rattlesnake pods.
2027: Plant all the seeds from the Dasinger vines, again mingled with other varieties on the pole. Save seeds from the Dasinger vine and the other varieties.
2028: By now I should know how all the seeds from the varieties look, so I can plant them all intermingled and still know when a cross shows up.

So now I have two years to evaluate the mix of varieties and rogue out maybe the worst performers or nature rogues them out herself. Then I have two years for crosses between the Dasinger and the others. I have the proximity and the fact, that the Dasinger is alone, surrounded by other varieties. From this I obtain hopefully some crosses, which I plant in a mix with the Dasinger and the other founder varieties.

How many founder plants should there be? I know that the course said that genetic diversity makes up for low numbers. I donā€™t think Iā€™ll be able to do more than 10 poles in one year, we donā€™t have that much room in the kitchen garden and it would not be fair on my parents to begin a giant experiment in their garden when Iā€™m leaving for Uni in the middle of september just when the dry beans have to be picked.
So I have 10 poles in 2024, 10 varieties with about 10 plants per variety, so about 100 founder plants. If this is not enough, I could do 10 varieties in 24 and 10 others in 2025. Or I could do 10 in 2024, save and replant their seeds in 2025, but already add some more varieties, since not every of the the 10 in 2024 will have seeds to save or be good enough to be propagated.

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Hi from a Swiss expat!
I wish I had found this community a bit earlier, Iā€™d gladly have smuggled, I mean brought you some seeds over on oir last trip to see the Grandparents this March. NƤgscht mal!
Here in the US only certain regions seem to even be aware of drying green beans (like for Berner Platte), but you should find a variety of beans from the Appalachia region, where that use is called Leather Britches, if you are specifically looking for drying at the snap bean stage!
I am growing a three sister garden and one of thr beans I am trying is a Cherokee Trail of tears. But pretty sure it has green pods from what I remember. Black blocky seeds.

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Wow, I didnā€™t mention that because I thought it was so regional and obscure that no one would know what I was talking about. Greasy beans, also from Appalachia and so named because the pods lack a fuzzy appearance are very good for that. They develop a very intense flavor when rehydrated that many people find a little too much, but I love it.

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I second each of these suggestions. Especially the Blue Coco ā€“ great all around bean both for string and dry.

The Hopi String that we have, has many, many phenotypes as a dry bean. I donā€™t like it as a string bean as well as I do as a dry bean. Super carefree to grow.

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I have heard of greasy beans, but havenā€™t tried growing any yet, thanks! I will have to look into it for next year!
The dried green beans are definitely part of the traditional Swiss palette of foods :slight_smile: A regional dish from Berne isnā€™t complete without it. (Berner Platte meaning Bernese Platter)
Hmm, i wonder if many Swiss people emigrated to Appalachia? Would make sense that mountain people be drawn to the mountains!
But then, I think drying green beans would have to have been more universal, in pre- freezer daysā€¦

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You can get some here Sustainable Mountain Agriculture. If you scroll down the page a bit a variety called Non-Tough Half Runner, not described as greasy also makes good leather britches. And in my garden, it will grow as shown in their picture, that is horizontally with the beans hanging down. Thantā€™s a handy trait as they are in easy reach to see and pick.

I think a lot of Scottish folks settled the mountains, the area is also known for corn whiskey, moonshine. Iā€™m a bit north of there and my area was settled by Swiss or so the story goes, they came here to make wine. In reality they were far from numerous but very influential and apparently well connected. Congress gave them a giant hunk of land to establish an American wine industry and the previous settlers along with the last of the Indians had to make other arrangements.

There is a town called Vevay, named for Vevey and misspelled in an effort to get others to pronounce it correctly. It didnā€™t work, people still pronounce it Ve-Ve. The wine industry didnā€™t work either, it was gone by the 1830s or so. There is a little book called The American Vine Dresserā€™s Guide first published in 1826.

The book has a lot of information on cultivating and breeding grapes. The author might fit right in here as he crossed and grafted wild American grapes with European wine grapes in effort to overcome disease pressures. I think he might be responsible for the extra diversity in our wild grapes now. Especially some of those that grow along the Ohio River in the area where the attempted vineyards existed. The disease pressure was too high and along with the fact that the local Americans preferred the moonshine made the first attempt at American wine a bust. So now Vevay is both misspelled and mispronounced. I think thatā€™s funny, but it doesnā€™t have much to do with beans.

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EFN says: Greasy beans originated in western North Carolina, part of the homeland of the Cherokee people, so itā€™s very likely that this whole class of bean has its roots with the Cherokee people.

'Doyce Chambers Greasy Cut-Short' Bean ā€“ Experimental Farm Network Seed Store.

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Thanks so much for all that info!
I didnā€™t realize or consider that different beansight taste differently dried. I just assumed they all were quite intensely flavored. But that makes total sense! I read (and am hopefully trying it this season, weather willing) in Carol Deppeā€™s book Resilient Gardener about zucchini and squash that dry well and are super tasty and that others taste awful. Weā€™ll see if my family likes dried squash.
And a bean that grows along a fence row? That would be awesome! I will definitely bookmark that to try and add to my garden next year!

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All of rural Appalachia is thick with greasy beans. It would be hard to count them all, but actually I canā€™t really tell a lot of them apart. My mix or landrace of them includes brown ones, brown speckled ones, cut shorts, white ones and some weird blueish/purple ones, that just showed up and all sorts of intermediate types. Cut short means they are very crowded in the pods, so the seeds end up flat on the ends.

They are old, all the old people when I was a kid, sixty years ago, grew them even in my area. Maybe the Swiss influence had something to do with that. More likely I reckon is folks just traveled or moved from the mountains to here and brought them along.

Some shatter easily when dry so you have to be careful picking them. Some are ā€œtrueā€ cornfield beans, in that they actually like the dense shade inside a corn patch. The tend to have very large leaves and lots of little pods. Most beans Iā€™ve seen grow well at the edge of a corn patch where they get more sun, but not in the middle.

There is amazing variation in the flavor of beans, no matter how they are used. Seems like most folks mix up dry beans for soup and I do that too but a lot of beans, greasys being in that group are wonderful as a side dish. Dry greasy beans cooked by themselves with a bit of onion and maybe a little ham or bacon taste almost the same as they do as green beans. Throw in some carrots, potatoes and maybe a bit of winter savory and call it a meal.

Ky Wonders are great that way and a very old bean called Ohio Pole is too. Both of those also make good leather britches. Some like Blue Lake make terrible leather britches, they wonā€™t dry good, and can often get moldy if you try it. Ohio Pole is a fantastic cornfield bean if you donā€™t mind waiting a long time for them to mature. Ohio Pole are great big beans.

In my garden white seeded greasy beans of any type do not do as well as other colors, I donā€™t know why. The just seem to have more issues with any kind of stress than other beans. Hard to get a nice clean and unblemished harvest of dry beans from them too. Actually, thatā€™s true of about any white bean, not a deal killer though, I still grow them.

I miss going to Billā€™s seed swap every year, it was really the only swap I had a good time at and came home with good stuff. They moved it several years ago from his place south of Lexington farther down into Tennessee and I havenā€™t been since. I might try to make the next one.

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I have a neighbor who finds that all beans just taste like beans - cowpeas, yardlong beans, common beans, etc.

My family disagrees - some are sweeter and best eaten as raw green beans, some are more strongly flavored and are best with some bacon and onion or in chili (green, shelly, or dried), some are flavorless and watery when green but have very delicate white beans for French cooking. We grow at least four varieties each year to capture all of the culinary potential.

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Iā€™d love to get some ā€œtrueā€ cornfield beans. Iā€™d love to see how theyā€™d do growing up a fence in full shade. Full shade can be kind of a valuable growing space for me, since far less water evaporates from the soil, so plants there donā€™t need to be watered nearly as frequently. Maybe I could even try cornfield beans under fruit trees!

I read Carol Deppeā€™s description of Withner White, and I immediately went, ā€œWhere do I find that?!ā€ Alas, I couldnā€™t find those seeds anywhere.

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Well, I have some. Iā€™ll drop some in when I send a package to the swap. Later this fall or winter.

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Wow! That would be awesome!