Researches into dual use pepos: hulless + good flesh!

[ThomasPicard]

I love hulless cucurbit seeds. So tasty.

I love pumpkins, acorns, or at least the best of them.

But but but… I hate throwing the flesh of my hulless pepos to the compost pile!!! As they taste so bland!!! Lady Godiva, Styrian, Kakai… All the same! Bland!

More substantially, as the seed yields are low, that means that no gardener and even no market gardener produces hulless seeds… I had about ten squash in my “bland-tasting-hulless-pepo-grex” this year, and in conclusion: that is too much effort, and too much space needed for, at the end of the day harvesting only about 1 pound (400gr) of dried seeds.

So it’s a dead end.

Unless… Some dual use strains exist already!

But I would have never heard of such ???..

After some quick researches…

… Here are the only 2 I have found!

• this line: Intersectionality Hulless Acorn Squash - Fruition Seeds
  Which seems like a lovely yellow acorn with orange flesh + … Hulless seeds!

• and this hybrid, bred by the great Brent Loy : Organic Non-GMO Pie-Pita F1 Hulless Pumpkin
  Its size is also small, and its seed yields are good, compared with the more usuals named above… that’s also a good point:
  Naked Seeded Pumpkin Variety Trial Report (1).pdf (176.1 KB)

(TECHNICAL INFO TIME: the hulless trait is governed by a single recessive gene, meaning it’s homozygous in that matter (i.e. this particular pair of gene is identical), so in f2 and next it will stay hulless, that trait won’t change.
More in detail: actually there are different levels of hullessnesss identified by Brent Loy, as there to be 4 layers of hulls. and do the related genetic is a bit more complex than that… but I won’t go that much into that. Too complicated! From pictures and my own experience I can see that Pie-Pita is perfectly hulless, and that the second is slightly less hulless… But no big matter: if you cross them you can always reselect towards perfect hullessness.
END OF THE NERD INFO TIME )

Seed yields of this one are good, that’s also a good point:
Naked Seeded Pumpkin Variety Trial Report (1).pdf (176.1 KB)

Some pictures of my hulless grex, different sized pepos with their bland flesh… which went directly to the compost !

Anyone interested researching other strains? Willing to create modern landraces based upon these traits?

Or willing to bring in the hulless trait in decent pepos, without having the burden to select against a bland flesh?

I am sure there are other strains or breeding lines sleeping in Genebank as this intersectionality thing which was bred before the 50’s and slept until recently in GRIN, managed by the USDA.

Anyway: project(s) of great interest I am sure. Seems relevant on so many levels…

[JesseI (Jesse Ilonen)]

Retzer gold is a common variety that has sweet flesh, as good as pepos are. Personally I don’t like pepos that much as pumpkin in general. Problem with oilseed pumkins to me is that they don’t have enough seeds to be worth growing, unless you have animals and can use flesh as fodder. But also because they freely cross with summer squash types so couldn’t grow them together.

I was thinking of crossing them with kamokamo which has a lot more seeds relative to weight, between 5-10% instead of at most 2%, but didn’t start because of all the complicationsa above.

[ThomasPicard]

@JesseI

But also because they freely cross with summer squash types so couldn’t grow them together.

Sure, needs space.

[ThomasPicard]

@JesseI

I was thinking of crossing them with kamokamo which has a lot more seeds relative to weight, between 5-10% instead of at most 2%, but didn’t start because of all the complicationsa above.

Pie-Pita has good seed rate too

[JesseI (Jesse Ilonen)]

I haven’t tested much, but all seem to be disappointments. Photos look like they will have much, but in reality don’t produce much. Maybe it’s partially the conditions. Kamokamo had really excessive amounts for non hulless variety. My estimation might even be a bit low. Can’t remember if I weighted those, but remember getting as much as or more seeds from kamokamo of max 2kg than I got from hulless that weighted up to 10kg.

[ThomasPicard]

From the above study: overall the biggest squashes have the lower seed rate. Like Lady Godiva.

It’s the same that happened with my grex: the heavy fleshed (6kg) yielding as much as the smaller ones (2kg), like Hulless Dana, i.e. 80-120grams of humid weight of seeds.

[ThomasPicard]

@JesseI

Personally I don’t like pepos that much as pumpkin in general.

Same for me.

What I would love is to get the hulless seeds in fair amount without losing space : that’s the first objective. And then after by delving into that topic I like the idea of a early pepo, and on top of that is bushy, with correct flesh, for september-october meals, mostly stuffed and rosted I would say. That will also enable me to sow early a crucifer-based cover crop which with other cucurbit species I can’t, as thry mature to lately, leading me to sow the regular cereal-leguminous mix which I can’t destroy until mid june, which is problematic for spring crops.

Then go the maximas (nov-february meals).

And eventually the moschatas (december-april), which overall need the most curing of all.

Eventually the extra long storage project derived from Tetsukabuto crossed with random Moschatas this year: a specific project aiming at having a march-june possible consumption.

I like this idea of differentiating timings in relation with usage. So quite enthusiastic of this differentiated breeding idea - dual use hulless pepo being just one part of that… But bringing in the hulless seeds!!! I am sure that if they could, market gardeners would go for it. It’s kind of attractive with both the hulless, the hulless seeds and the nice looking of these, attractive in early september on a market bench.

[nico]

Could be more than a single gene : Hulless pumpkin

[ThomasPicard]

Yep, thanks @nico, indeed it is slighly more complicated as some say 3 for the perfect hullessness:

Other strains I have red dual use on Alanbishop Proboard:

• Elwyn Meader’s Sweetnut Hulless
  
  
• Triple Treat
  
  
• Green Stripe
  
  

[Hugo (Hugo Morvan)]

I don’t care that they’re bland, i plan to grow them at my neighbors, in a field with corn next to the chickens. I need those seeds for the prostrate!
Do they grow vigorous Thomas? Or does the plant stays quite small? I’ve noticed the bigger the plant in Maxima at least, the more vining habit it has, the more foliage, the more energy to pump into the fruit, the bigger the pumpkin. And the more seeds it contains. They can tell me a lot about percentages, but if i wouldn’t take care to include seeds of smaller fruits into grown out grexes, the population would skewer towards giant vining ones.
If you agree with my observation, maybe it should be included into your quest for good tasting hulless pepos. Once you’ve given me keeper pepos, i called them monsters because they just crept across the walkway into my hoophouse, didn’t care of me stepping on the stems and just colonized a whole bit on the other side including a table. It was a shame their fruits were so hard and tough, but they just kept on going.
In general in our way of thinking i believe that’s overlooked, we like to grow and walk off, come back to harvest, but if the plants do not get on top of the other evil plants surrounding them then it will be difficult that.

[ThomasPicard]

There are very good ressources on hulless pepo breeding in the Alan Bishop Proboard section about cucurbits, in different topics, some dating even back to 2008.

Haven’t seen much on Open Source Plant Breeding.

In the litterature (searched via researchgate.com), this is the best resource I have seen on the gene(s) question, with a comprehensive summary of prior studies and a synthesis:

Lelley_et_al._Hull_Less_Oil_Seed_Pumpkin.pdf (758.0 KB)

So a major recessive gene (h) for the hullessness trait + an incompletely dominant gene (N) responsible for the residual lignification

There are different levels of residual lignification, like seen on these two (called Type 2 and 3 on a scale from 1 to 4)

Then Type 1 and 4: fully hulled / fully hulless:

Logically in genetic terms it would be - if I get it right! -:

• hulled (NnHh or NNHH or NNHh) - type 1
• totally hulless (nnhh) - type 4

In my experience, my grex of about 10 different varieties is made of type 4 only, even one fruit showing not even the super super transparent thin layer on them, a trait which is not even mentionned in most papers.

And then to summarize this in relation with my intent: if I was to get rid of my prior grex (because of bland flesh) to go towards a dual use pepo - and out of the bushy growth habit and earlyness I would be looking for - by reassembling new strains with this dual use already in them, I would simply look at the seed type and include:

• either Type 4 only (perfect hullessness), so from that moment on my breeding will mostly concentrate on taste (flesh and seeds)
• or from Type 2 or 3 to 4 and so then I would need - only if I was unhappy with the incomplete hullessness!- to breed out this incomplete hullessness trait, on top of the overall taste selection, which doesn’t sound that complicated.

Then gor sure, if I could assemble easily 10 strains of type 4 dual use pepos I would go with that! Excluding the incompletely hulless.

But it seems there is not so much available. So I would go with the second option: searching for any kind of diversity first to find great offsprings. The Acorn type looking so different to the other types being a great diversification. Why not the zucchininlooking types also. And of course the more smallish type roundball like Pie-Pita and Triple Treat.

About the varieties linked above;

• Pie-Pita f1 is Type 4, i.e. 100% hulless
• Intersectionality Acorn seems Type 3, mostly hulless and very partial lignification (you can see that in the glass jar in the video)
• Triple Treat is type 3 or 4.
• Green Stripe and Melwyn Meader’s Sweetnut Hulless: I just can’t find them anywhere.

Last point about the fully hulless trait: the great thing with the already existing F1 is that they must be fully homozygous, i.e. not changing in perfect hullessness in later generations, when segregating. So to say: there is already some variability in that!

[ThomasPicard]

@Hugo

Do they grow vigorous Thomas? Or does the plant stays quite small?

So you are talking of my former grex with bland flesh

So some are vining and some are more bushy. In average they are strong plants, well fruiting.

@Hugo

I’ve noticed the bigger the plant in Maxima at least, the more vining habit it has, the more foliage, the more energy to pump into the fruit, the bigger the pumpkin

Yes that’s a known fact. Also the bushy types ease the plantation and weeding as they shade everything on their spot, while the most vining are impredictable.

@Hugo

the bigger the pumpkin. And the more seeds it contains.

Wasn’t the case for these, as written above, I can certified as I weight each of my ten hulless pepo seed harvest this year. Once again : about 100gr of humid weight, whether the squash weight 6 (Lady Godiva) or 2kilos (Hulless Dana). Same trend for the other strains. Graph above strongly correlate with that.

Then I like the idea of having a grex especially bushy and early, when all my other grexes in other species are vining and come later, for the purpose of simplifying weeding if planted at the appropriate distance - so rather or very dense - and more to the point: the foreseen possibility of sowing my crucifer cover crop before the first of september, which would allow to implant onions around february, when this cover crop flowers, which is a thing I can’t do with the others, especially moschatas, but also maximas and watermelons. Of course if these were not early maturing I wouldn’t care of that and would think differently. For example my maximas and moschatas can grow however they want.
Then all these “new” dual use strains are bushy types and early maturing, so that’s what given me this insight to go forward with that.

I’ll send you as many seeds of my hulless grex as you want, but beware: unfortunately, on top of the 10 actual hulless seeded pepos I got they were 3 which were hulled, two coming from a commercial strain, 1 coming from our seed exchanges. So then, even if I rejected for seed drying and storage, you may see let’s say 30% of next generation fully hulled, which is a trait to drain out of the population, and I am not skilled enough to know how. Kind of a burden. Probably you should self-pollinate each plant to make sure it’s stable hulless (so 2 genes the same) and then sow the ones which are in next season to go forward with this 1-2 years grex.

Seems like I can’t change my reaction () to your first post before you edited it, giving a much more in depth version, prior to that I thought you were joking.

[Hugo (Hugo Morvan)]

Well joking, all men suffer from Benign prostate syndrome, more or less, i caught myself running to the toilet the other day for a few pathetic drops , where as i used to hose an adult man off of his moped when i was younger…

These pits help, but i failed to grow them before.
I am planning to do a growout on a plot as big as an average garden, which is really well fed as it’s full of nettles(ortie) now. Which funnily enough has roots that help the same syndrome.

I doubt anybody is skilled enough to separate those mixed up pits. I can only hope it doesn’t become 60% by the time they’re done. But maybe it’s better to start afresh with a new grex if you know where to get some good seeds where the recessive genes are garantied to be pure.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

You mentioned you have trouble sowing an early crucifer-based cover crop with other cucurbit species. I’m curious about why. Perhaps a difference between our climates? I find that brassica seeds scattered under squash vines will germinate during our one rainy week of summer (late August), and then do well in full shade under the squash leaves until the summer heat is finished. Then when the squashes die in late October, they turn into mulch for the brassicas, which will grow through the winter. Then in spring, if I sow squashes into that area again, I just sow around the brassicas – squash seedlings don’t need much space, and by the time the squash plants get huge, the brassicas will prefer to be under them again for the summer. I’m wondering if that combination works particularly well for my climate, or perhaps if we have different goals.

I love your idea of developing a pepo population with lots of hulless seeds and tasty flesh. It seems to me that whenever you get to the point that you have seeds to share (if you’re willing to share, instead of eating them all ), a Hulless Mix would be an awesome separate mix for pepo squashes.

[isabelle (Harlé)]

Amazing thomas,
I am really impressed by the depth of your enquiries and researches . I don’t have enough brain space for such work, but if you need land to grow these experiment, I volunteer. Hulless and edible flesh has been a dream for me for as long as I started growing cucrubits…

[ThomasPicard]

@UnicornEmily

You mentioned you have trouble sowing an early crucifer-based cover crop with other cucurbit species. I’m curious about why. Perhaps a difference between our climates?

Because in my friend’s 10 years experience the dailkon-mustard mix is best sow between tye 20th of August and before the 10th of September to be able to thrive before winter and be crushed around february to install nect plantation… But but…

@UnicornEmily

I find that brassica seeds scattered under squash vines will germinate during our one rainy week of summer (late August), and then do well in full shade under the squash leaves until the summer heat is finished. Then when the squashes die in late October, they turn into mulch for the brassicas, which will grow through the winter.

… That is super interesting practice! I didn’t think of it, even if I did this year a sowing of dwarf summer cover crops in between my lines of cucurbits, using mostly finger millet from store (nitrogen fixing and really good soil structurator thanks to its root system). Sown the maximas around the 5th of June and this intermediary cover crop around 1st of July, as I was willing to keep all the soil covered with living things during the summer heat. I did not do a harvest out of that, it was not the objective, but the germination was assured by ly irrigation system…
… So yes, you are 100% right, I could try that! Thanks

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Hey, cool! I hope it works for you!

I have done the same thing successfully with carrots. (In spring or in fall. If sown in spring, their tall, skinny leaves poke up right through the gaps of big bush pepo leaves, so both crops get full sun.) Peas and garlic didn’t work out so well. Just in case carrots are another interesting thing to try.

Random question for you with your hulless pepos. You mentioned being interested in a bush form. Are you hoping to select for that as an important trait, or is it more of a bonus you will only nudge along if it doesn’t conflict with your main goals?

[ThomasPicard]

@UnicornEmily

I have done the same thing successfully with carrots. (In spring or in fall. If sown in spring, their tall, skinny leaves poke up right through the gaps of big bush pepo leaves, so both crops get full sun.)

Fascinating stuff!!! I so much like the idea.

@UnicornEmily

Random question for you with your hulless pepos. You mentioned being interested in a bush form. Are you hoping to select for that as an important trait, or is it more of a bonus you will only nudge along if it doesn’t conflict with your main goals?

First when I discovered most of the recently bred dual use pepos were bushy, I didn’t pay more attention nor thought it would be an interesting trait… But after some thinking, it appears like a contrast I appreciate, contrast from my Moschatas and Maximas, which are vining and will continue to be. That bushy trait could ease different kinds of new experiments, like side-sowings in line of other summer crops.
Then my argument in favor of these in relation with my daikon-mustard cover crop, was earliness, but as you explained I could try not worrying too much about this criteria and sow my cover crop in the maturing pepo harvest. Ans that sounds great.

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Neato!

After weighing the benefits of both bush and vining forms, I find that I like them all mixed up together . . . so I’ve decided to consider that trait “I won’t worry about it.” (Laugh.) I just sow all my squashes together, water them very little, and save seeds from the tastiest, most productive ones that survive, and they can have whatever growth habit they feel like!

Bushes tend to get more sun, but not by that much, because the vines that are next to the bushes crawl out of the garden and into the lawn and start shading out the inedible grasses. Sure, okay! Knock yourself out, plants!

[ThomasPicard]

Another (semi-)hulless: Baby Bear:

Baby Bear - Mini Pumpkin Seed | Johnny's Selected Seeds

Bred by crossing Streaker with New England Pie, by Rob Johnston : Classical Plant Breeding at Johnny's | by Rob Johnston, Jr, Plant Breeder (Retired) & Founder of Johnny's Selected Seeds