Can Lathyrus (Ornamental Sweet pea) & Pisum (Garden Pea) Hybridize?

General Discussions
1

Would it be possible to start a Landrace between these 2 genera & have them Hybridize?

I’ve been trying to find reasons as to why they can’t. So far I found Botanical Descriptions of each genus here : FNA: Pisum vs. Lathyrus

Apparently Pisum sativum (Garden Pea) is now Classified as Lathyrus oleraceus but it’s not widely accepted yet. https://www.worldfloraonline.org/taxon/wfo-0000212718
Does this mean Pisum is close enough to Lathyrus Phylogenically to hybridize?

Below are the Phylogenics. It seems that Genus Vavilovia was Reclassified as Lathyrus formosus, perhaps it’s not too farfetched for pisum to be a Lathyrus spp. & thus Crossable right? Also are All Lathyrus spp. Cross compatible or are there subgenera within Lathyrus to prevent Hybridizations?

image
image451×623 21.8 KB

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phylogeny-of-Fabeae-tribe-based-on-chloroplast-and-ITS-DNA-sequence-data_fig1_232015183

Both Genera Pisum & Lathyrus Share the Same Chromosome 2n =14. Both are also are Edible as Forager Sam Thayer enjoys many Lathyrus species. I’ve also read Pisum could be considered a Sister genus to Lathyrus, is that plausible? Or should Pisum be a Subgenus within Lathyrus like with Vavilovia? Maybe it’s the other way around where Vavilovia is a subgenus within Pisum?

2 Likes
2

This is the kind of question I love to see!
Classifications are arbitrary, but they can give some hints about potential compatibility. Chromosome counts can also work this way, but there are no hard and fast rules about which plants can cross. Even within a species individuals are often sexually incompatible (e.g. many plants are self incompatible too). The only thing to do next is to try crossing yourself. Keep in mind an intergeneric cross is more likely to succeed if you try a range of different species combinations (same with interspecies crosses when you use multiple strains in different combinations). Beyond that there are a bunch of low tech methods for lowering compatibility barriers like mentor pollen, stigma removal, even as far as embryo rescue if you are willing to learn tissue culture.

3 Likes
3

AWESOME!!! I spent the whole day researching peas (Pisum & Lathyrus). It seems like Pisum is nested within Lathyrus. There are apparently 13 sections worldwide which would explain how diverse Lathryus can be so it could be fitting that Pisum is another section right? If i can confirm Hybridization across different sections within Lathyrus than that only increases the chances of Lathyrus x pisum working well. Perhaps there are some Lathyrus species that are very closely related to pisum. I haven’t figured out which species belong to which section yet & how strict Hybridization barriers are between sections.

For a general rule, subgenus = strict & section = not strict right? Solanum genus uses sections & Subgenus but Lathyrus so far only sections, where is the consistency?

1 Like
4

Just get the pollen flying asap to find out for yourself.
The way different levels of classification are used varies a lot. The Fabaceae experts use a different sense of the same levels to the Solanaceae people. The whole species/genus/tribe/order etc pyramid is a 19th century relic. The modern phylogenetics people have pretty much abandoned it. They only care about groups being monophyletic (but with the emerging importance of wide hybridisation and horizontal gene transfer even that doesnt mean as much as they would wish)

3 Likes
5

Interesting, without such consistency i just ignored lots of it. I treat subgenera like genera & sections that don’t cross with each other like genera too. I also just love breaking the rules because that’s how totally new plants/crops get invented.

Originating from one line basically right? & Polyphyletic would be everything likely crossable right? Because I’ve read Pisum was determined to be polyphyletic within Lathyrus.

According to this ResearchGate Link : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232015183_Phylogeny_phylogeography_and_genetic_diversity_of_the_Pisum_genus
“…wider hybridization experiments between Lathyrus and Pisum species have shown cross-incompatibility (Ochattet al., 2004).” But have they tried a species from every Lathyrus section?

image
It seems like Vavilovia formosa (Which was reclassified as Lathyrus formosa) is Pisum’s closest living ancestor. But why did the Perennial ancestors of “Pisum” die off? Could the Perennial trait be brought back into Pea? Would be super useful, but that isn’t a trait that you could horizontally transfer right?

Also I’ve heard Red corn made the grasses around it also red. Would that be an example of horizontal gene flow right?

1 Like
6

Well well well… Look at what I found
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260536801_The_bicentenary_of_the_research_on_‘beautiful’_Vavilovia_Vavilovia_Formosa_a_legume_crop_wild_relative_with_taxonomic_and_agronomic_potential

image
image406×559 29.1 KB

image
image850×639 25.5 KB

These New Phylogenic Trees match up with the Previous ones. This is starting to feel extremely similar to the Chenopodium Reclassification situation where Chenopodium was split into Blitum, Spinacia, Dysphania, Oxybasis, Lipandra, Atriplex, Chenopodium and Chenopodiastrum which makes more sense. However I really feel Chenopodiastrum is likely a subsection within the Lambsquater/Quinoa Chenopodium & might cross with Mentor Pollination Techniques.

Getting back to Lathyrus, I’m having trouble finding out research on their Sections & the Crossability between sections.

Towards the end of the same study, I’ve just read that Vavilovia x Pisum was done but F2 seeds were lost. This gives me lots of hope to try it myself, perhaps the hybrid could be a Bridge for Pisum & the Rest of the Lathyrus species. Below is the quote.

“This would check the reports on achievements at
State Scientific Centre N. I. Vavilov All-Russian
Research Institute of Plant Industry of Russian
Academy of Agricultural Science (VIR) (Golubev,
1990), where F1 plants were obtained from crosses
between pea and V. formosa, but without developed F2
seeds or plant material being saved.”

Also “Vicia is paraphyletic, with all other genera nested
inside it, and that Vavilovia is a sister to Pisum;
together these two are sister to Lathyrus”

hmm… Perhaps Vicia is a mess or maybe some Vicia are misplaced & should be their own genus or merged into another?

Also in the same study “plastid DNA sequences, have led to V. formosa
being treated not as a species in its own genus, but as
P. formosum”
WOW… It was treated as another Pisum species which makes sense since a successful cross was preformed. Only problem now is where will I get Vavilovia formosa seeds. Hold up, but how edible is it tho? I assume it has similar edibility to Pisum & Lathyrus.

1 Like
7

Great sleuthing, but you wont know what crosses are possible unless you try them yourself. Even if a particular cross has been reported (or reported as failing) that doesnt guarantee the same result will be reproduced if you try it yourself. The specific lines you use of a species, and even the weather at the time of crossing, can make or break a hybridisation.

Monophyletic means a group of species descended from a single ancestor, but the assessment of this relies on creating phylogenetic trees, which are themselves built from a limited number of reporter genes. This means if two species or genera hybridise, the reporter genes could come from either parent, so evidence of hybridisation isn’t always picked up by standard phylogenetic analysis which assumes branching trees over time.
Polyphyletic means a group of species with different ancestors, but it is arbitrary when you choose to set the time in history when the divergence happened. If all life is descended from a single original ancestor way back when then every species strictly speaking is monophyletic. It is another foundational term in biology which doesn’t mean all that much.
Perennial versions of crops are usually pretty easy to interconvert with annuals. Plants don’t strictly keep to these definitions, and a lot of perennials are somewhat short lived. These traits depend on the interaction of a whole bunch of different genes, so reliably causing the change in plant lifespan by genetic engineering would probably be tricky (though I don’t doubt there might be a few simple genes known which influence plant longevity). To me it sounds like a lot of work making a perennial Pisum when there are already a bunch of perennial legumes to start with.

2 Likes
8

Thank you! I do lots of research because Learning is all I can do Right now to Advance Gardening Skills. I like to look up Potential crosses & gather ingredients to preform them, wouldn’t want to waste time on things that have zero potential.

:rofl: oh boy. In the grand scheme of things Everything is Monophyletic & Polyphyletic depending on how you measure it or Where you are in the Tree of Life. Even Cultivar Groups can be considered Monophyletic or Polyphyletic depending on how you break it down right? Like Popcorn descended from Flint Corn and would be Monophyletic from that point on right?

Yea, but I love Pea shoots! Also too many good legumes to learn about! I’m categorizing & Learning every edible Legume, using Hybridization barriers to weed out weak Identification traits. Coming from the Foraging world that’s super important so you don’t by accidentally eat something toxic or prepare it wrong.

2 Likes