Radish x Mustard Landrace (Brassica x Raphanus = Brassicorapahnus)

Adaptation Projects
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I was MIND BLOWN when I found out you Could Hybridize Radish with Kale! 2 Completly Differen genera can Hybridize and thus Introduce New Genetics into either Radish or Brassica Landraces. The Cross makes a new Genus, the Brassicoraphanus genus.

This was discovered because a Soviet Agronomist Georgi Dimitrievich Karpenchenko made it happen using Raphanus sativus and Brassica oleracea. F1 Hybrids were mostly sterile but a few made true seeds giving rise to the allopolypolid hybrid Brassicoraphanus.
Lots of intergeneric hybrids (Cross between 2 different genera) were made via Embryo Resque and Chemically Induced Doubling of Chromosomes. Used Specifcally when Fertile Crosses aren’t Produced. But It doesn’t seem like Georgi did any of that.

Check out the Researchgate link and Tell me what you think!
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317311898_Developing_Stable_Cultivar_through_Microspore_Mutagenesis_in_Brassicoraphanus_koranhort_Inter-Generic_Allopolyploid_between_Brassica_rapa_and_Raphanus_sativus

Here is the Hybridization Triangle with Raphanus and Brassica

A-cubic-triangle-with-R-sativus-on-the-apex-of-the-Us-plane-triangle-of-Brassica
A-cubic-triangle-with-R-sativus-on-the-apex-of-the-Us-plane-triangle-of-Brassica850Ă—549 120 KB

and This right here shows you that B. carnita, B, juncea, and B. napus are all just hybrids. Useful to understand how Brassica Species Cross!

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This is all possible because the 2 Genera are Closely related in a Phylogenic Tree (Both Genera belong to the same Tribe Brassicaea)
Also Related in this Tribe are the Following Genera

  • Sinapis alba (White Mustard)
  • Rhamphospermum nigrum (Black Mustard, Formerly Brassica nigra)(Already Proven Crossable with other Brassica Spp. in the Cross Triangle Images)
  • Hirschfeldia incana (Horary Mustard, formerly Brassica geniculata)
  • AND IF I’M NOT MISTAKEN Crambe maritima (Sea Kale) Should also be able to cross but Please Somebody School my ass on that one or politely correct me, I’m good with either method.

Here is Brassicaceae Phylogeneic Tree

Phylogeny-of-Brassicaceae-Time-calibrated-phylogeny-of-51-Brassicaceae-species-inferred
Phylogeny-of-Brassicaceae-Time-calibrated-phylogeny-of-51-Brassicaceae-species-inferred850Ă—785 107 KB

JUST THINK ABOUT THE LANDRACING POTENTIALLY HERE! It’s INSANLY MIND BLOWING!
I think you can buy Brassicoraphanus seeds somewhere. Now that the genetic bridge was made, genetic information can travel between Brassica and Raphanus thanks to the hybrid. Think about all the New Vegetables that can be bred because of this! MIND FOOKIN BLOWN.

OH I also Forgot to add, All Parts of Brassica and Raphanus are edible. Doesn’t matter the species, every part is edible raw or cooked of both Mustard and Radish. This includes the Leaves, Flowers, Seeds, Seedpods, Roots, Young Tender Shoots/Stems, Microgreens, etc. Just not all are mild, lots of them like Brassica nigra are very hot! but still edible and healthy for you!

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Incredible stuff!
I have some brassica, mustard greens, kale and rocket all flowering at the moment- it will be interesting to see how they cross…
Best luck on the landrace!

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Genus and species are just serving suggestions for crop genetics. I might try a daikon radish brassica cross someday

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Yea all of those will Cross because all of those are Brassica species. However I don’t know about your Rocket Plant. Many different Plants Share that name, making me guess it’s not a brassica. If the scientific name of your Rocket Plant is a Brassica, then it should be able to hybridize. If not oh well.

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Intergeneric crosses are common enough. Sometimes even interfamily crosses are possible. The labels humans put on lifeforms are just a serving suggestion when it comes to the potential to breed. Amateur plant growers can always just cross pollinate anything and see what happens. I just spent 5 minutes crossing an Allium with a Tulbaghia to see what would result. No seeds set, but it was a very small investment on my part.

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Go for it dude!
haha :laughing: :rofl: Serving Suggestions you Funny!

If I get access to land, I will also attempt to do it. We still need to get seeds of the hybrid 1st! Since it will increase chances of cross pollination in my Raphanus x Brassica Landrace! Without the Bridge, it will be hard to make the Genetic Jump but still worth the effort!

I always like radish for the greens, never was a fan of the root. Same applies to Turnips which are the roots of a Brassica. There also exist Purple Rambo Radish commonly grown for Microgreens. I wonder why no one grows these into a radish landrace, would add a cool purple color in Radish Leaves. This guy on reddit grew the micro to full size!

Radish Purple fcPnNGEYBCON7nfbAKUQZSxHsgUwawqJk6hqgVoK3-k
Radish Purple fcPnNGEYBCON7nfbAKUQZSxHsgUwawqJk6hqgVoK3-k1834Ă—3259 773 KB

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I agree with this sentiment but not fully. I mean if you know what your doing and aren’t afraid of Genetically engineering your plants so crosses that were never meant to happen, actually happen.

Humans label things funny, but it helps us understand. Never let the labels humans put kill your enthusiasm but understand that they can be a useful tool!
The taxonomic labels are especially useful because it gives me piece of mind knowing that toxic plants won’t cross with edible plants. I’m glad edible plants don’t cross with poisonous plants, Imagine if Tomato & Potato crossed? Would the fruit be edible? probably not, hence why I’m thankful they belong to different subgenera within the solanum genus. The only exception are Squash plants, we Bred out the toxins out of squash and made an epic crop, but there was at least something to work with in squash, despite being poisonous, the seeds were mostly edible hence why people began breeding them in the first place.

With GMO Technology, we can make toxic plants edible, so I mean there’s always that. Also brings another question, will going to seed accept GMO Seeds in their landrace mixes? Technically you are increasing genetic diversity but I also feel it is very easy fuck it up. I might start another page about it.

Fun fact but All Pome fruits are Technically Crossable despite being in different genera. Assuming there are Genetic Bridges, Apples can Cross with Pears, Hawthrons with Aronia, Hawthorns with Saskatoon Berries, and so on.

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Luther Burbank showed that wide crosses in plants are viable far more often than people realise (even to this day if you showed his reports to a trained botanist they would often not believe them). Luckily Burbank wasn’t trained in formal botany and simply did his experiments himself without asking any expert opinions first. Plant pollination is normally pretty efficient at keeping pollen within the species, and that hybrids often suffer an initial competitive disadvantage if they dont fit into any functional ecological niche.

The genus Sarracenia (the american pitcher plants) are a great example of this. Each species is specialised in catching a particular type of prey. Often two or three species grow in the same location, and natural hybrids are common, but selective pressure drives them back toward the “pure” species if they manage to reproduce at all. This creates fuzzy boundaries between the species, injecting a trickle of diversity into the pure species over time, and keeping the genus flexible enough to evolve new species from hybrid origins should a new niche open up. Orchids and Nepenthes function this way as well, as do most species to different degrees.

Humans have the potential to be an unprecedented catalyst for speciation and evolution. When the first insects teamed up with flowering plants the combination caused an explosion in species diversity and greatly accelerated evolution of both groups. I believe human beings could become the universal pollinator so to speak of every living thing on the planet. Teaming up with accidental hybrids like wheat, rice and maize transformed human society and the planet. Who knows what could happen if we started making and nurturing deliberate hybrids next?

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I don’t think there’s any “meant” involved. Some stuff happens often. Some almost never. Plants pick up genetic material from insects and carry on with it.

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Awesome, I love this way of thinking! What i Meant by “Meant” was how Botanist/Taxonimist says things weren’t “meant” to cross. Obviously Nature will constantly prove us wrong for our silly taxonomic borders. There just there to help us understand and save our time with things that will cross more likely.

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Luther Burbank work was legendary. I wonder how his work matches up with Ivan Michurin who also had a similar idea to Landrace/Breeding. That also begs the Question, how many trained botanist are actually doing landrace gardening and trying to prove their classifications wrong? Why would there be such a disconnect tho? Are the University/College type of Closed mind thinking to blame? Or is lack of Feedback of not doing enough Experiments to blame?

Yea I like that way of thinking! Isn’t this what landrace Gardening is all about?

If we can just invent species, then doesn’t this break the definition of a species a Little bit? Is this what confuses taxonomists? Would this explain why some plants have no Obvious Origin. Like Wintermelon (Benicasa hispida) for example? Just think how many species Humans have invented from our entire existence. I think the real question to ask is, when does a Varieties become a species? when It can no loger hybridize with other species? But Taxonomist make so many new species of plants that can easily hybridize with each other? So why is it even a seperate species then?

2 Examples I can think of is

  1. the American Stinging Nettle and Euorpean Stinging Nettle are both the Same Species Urtica dioca, just different varieties. Also brings the question, how can the same species be native but also an invasive species at the same time? I doubt the Variety makes that big of a difference, maybe it’s the dogmatic stance that makes the difference so Big?

  2. American Highbush Cranberry and Slavic Kalina are both the same species Viburnum opulus. Again ones invasive and the other native? How? Is this why Taxonmist now Classify American Highbush Cranberry as a separate species (Viburnum trilobum) even tho they all can & often do Hybridize with each other in Nature? How can this be if they aren’t seperate species?

hmm makes you really think doesn’t it. Who stands to benefit from this type of Classification? Was the war on Invasive species invented to justify pesticide use in Forrest? Cuz there’s just no fucking way using pesticides helps the environment, that’s some serious mental gymnastics right there.

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Professional biologists argue about the definition of species all the time. When you throw in the constant buzz of small chunks of DNA being moved between organisms by viruses and bacteria the genetic isolation of any population of sexually reproducing organisms starts to look pretty porous.

The invasive species mindset is really interesting to me. If you dig into the history of invasive species you often find that they were introduced decades before they became a problem. Often I think the missing ingredient is a “hybridisation” event (as in two distinct strains of the same species eventually crossed paths, creating a highly diverse swarm that underwent rapid evolution to fill an empty niche in the landscape (which tend to be created by human disturbance in the first place)). This is a parallel to what happens in landracing- deliberately bringing together a few distinct strains of a crop species, encouraging them to cross, then selecting a locally adapted form from the resulting hybrid diversity.

Pretty much every major crop species has hybrid origins if you go back to the point of domestication. This process has been repeated within living memory for more recently domesticated crops like blueberries, pecans and macadamia nuts. It is my life’s ambition to spread these ideas far and wide and see if I can help create a thousand new Luther Burbanks all across the planet.

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Years ago I was reading a supposedly scholarly article which stated that pine trees weren’t native to the American continent. Too many similarities to trees in other areas of the world…

I’ve seen simular arguments for many other species, from lavender to watermelons, from honeybees to wolves. The general consensus seems to be that if it is similar to another organism elsewhere, it MUST have been imported.

I may be entirely wrong, but I tend to think that many of the “rules” were made up to support previous generations’ preconceptions.

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So are Invasive species and Landrace Gardening Ideas incompatible? If so then How do we as Landrace Gardeners Bring the Native Only Gardeners together? We both care about our environment but differ in methods completely. Is it even worth the effort of working with them tho? Or is it like the Gardeners Equivalent to Politics where nothing gets solved & everything is a Negative downward spiral.

Are Invasive species (Just like Weeds) a Man made concept therefore don’t truly exist in Nature? I’ve Read the Book “Beyond The War on Invasive species” didn’t finish it but got the gist.

Really interesting book, Kind of Breaks the Invasive species concept, and explains the history of that mindset. From this book I learned that Apparently Pesticide Companies like Monsanto Lobbied Colleges to Push their Dogmatic views hence why it’s so prevalent today (Thankfully now science is catching up and peeling back this dogmatic view)

I think this forum is gonna make Luther Burbanks than you could’ve ever imagined.
I’m already standing on the solders of giants like Luther Burbanks, Ivan Michurin, Joesth Lofthouse, Charles Dowin, Paul Gouchi, Matt Powers, Samuel Thayer, Arthur Haines, Blanche Cybele Derby, Andrew Mallison, Billy from Perma Pastures Farms, Dave Wilson, David The Good, Elaine Inghram, Jo Jenkins, Migardener, Arkopia, Micheal Greger, Michael Mazourek, Paul wheaton, Ross Raddi, stefan sobkowiak, and so many more People I’ve Learned from.

All Giants in their respective fields, from Landrace, Breeding, Foraging, Permaculture, Pruning, Gardening, Nutrition, etc. All these People I respect very much because of what they do. All Their Philosophies/Perspective Differ meaning enough things to learn from thus creating your own new path to carry the torch forward! Heck even you, I’ve already learned a Crap ton from.
This is why I joined this forum, to Soak in as much info as I can! To Learn as much as I can, To test my Theories on different perspectives! So we can all Benefit from Cross Pollination of Diverse Ideas!

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huh that’s interesting, so then what would be native to anything then? Is Native also a man made concept like weeds? Where neither truly exists in Nature?
Previous Generations Preconceptions…? Interesting what are our generations Preconceptions? In other words what are our generations Blindspots? I guess we will find out when we get older, Wiser and when we even Learn more!

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The very first thing I do when I move to a new area I have not gardened in before is to look up the list of all the invasive plants for that area. I then look up all food producing plants that are related to any plant on the invasive list if the plants listed are not directly useful food plants themselves. This to me is a good first start at finding plants that will grow locally without huge inputs or massive amount of effort on my part trying to keep them alive.

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You my dude are thinking Exactly how I am thinking. Domesticating Wild Edibles is what I am attempting to do, because I love plants that don’t require much work, who grow without fail in my Environment. Nature already proved their genetics are good or that we have an Abundance of Deer & Groundhogs.

In my region, these edible plants are Often labeled as “Invasive species”

  • Dame’s Rocket (Hesperis matronalis)
  • Stringing Nettle (Urtica dioca)
  • Autumn Olive (Eleagnus umbellata)
  • Wineberry (*Rubus phoenicolasius)
  • Blackberries (Rubus spp.)
  • Paper Mulberry (Broussonetia papyrifera)
  • White Mulberry (Morus alba)
  • Garlic Mustard (Allaria petiolata)
  • Black locust (Robinia spp.)
  • Chocolate Vine (Akebia spp.)
  • Gooseberry/Currant (Ribes spp.)
  • Kudzu (Pueraria montana)
  • Mile-A-Minute (Persicaria perfoliata)
  • Goutweed (Aegopodium podagraia)
  • Chinese Yam (Dioscorea polystachya)
  • Crow Garlic (Allium vineale)
  • Shiso (Perillia frutecens)
  • Kousa Dogwood (Cornus kousa)
  • Kiwi Berry (Actinida arguta)

And these Plants make good Rootstocks for Grafts, such as

  • Callery Pear (Pyrus calleryana)
  • Multiflora Rose (Rosa multiflora)

The Rest make Good Biofule and or Compost Material to help the plants I want to grow, GROW big and Strong! Imagine we could solve our Gasoline Crisis with Invasive species? They are both Dead forms of life so why not.

Some “Native” Plants are also just as Competitive as the Invasive and should be lumped into the same Category for Landrace Breeding. Like

  • American Passionfruit (Passiflora incarnata)
  • American Persimmon (Diospyros virginiana)
  • American Wild Ground Cherries (Physalis spp.)
  • American Wild Grapes (Vitus spp.)
  • Lambsquaters (Chenopodium spp.)
  • Sunflower Tubers (Helianthus tuberosum)