Landrace Fruit Trees

I just had an idea. Maybe collaborating with these kind of people could be good:

  • People who plant big areas of trees for timber harvest. Like walnut or other fruit or nut trees that have value for their wood
  • People who plant trees to get grant money from governments
  • People who plant trees out of reforestation motivation

Maybe working together, several of the best candidates of a species could be found then their seeds planted, strategically for pollination purposes in terms of placement, into a whole forest/woodland! Then seedlings from them taken to plant the next woodland. Then make selections from that second woodland, and so on.

This would still be a slow process of course, but the scale should help, right? They might even pay you to plant them! I would think having such a collaboration as that would be ideal for the F2 generation at least, and the generations after that. For the initial crossings I guess you wouldn’t need so much space but if you did have 10 or 20 candidates you wanted to cross then having a tree-business collaborator with the space would presumably help!

Here are some photos of persimmon wood for you all:





image

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Oooh. I think that’s an absolutely brilliant idea. Especially since a forest is healthier when you don’t clear-cut it, and leave some mother trees behind to nurture the new seedlings. With a little planning, you could make sure all the trees you leave as mother trees are the ones with the best nuts, fruits, disease resistance, or whatever else you’re looking for.

Also, that wood is drop-dead gorgeous.

I currently have apricot, almond and cherry seedlings in pots. I have seeds for oak, chestnut (from a blight tolerant tree from a friend’s family farm, and one of its seedlings), peaches, apples, nectarines, grapes, pistachios (Thanks, Joseph!) and…(uh…maybe I should go look?:slight_smile: )… in the refrigerator.

My food forest goes in once it warms up enough out there.

A couple thoughts. An old neighbor in Utah had an apple tree in her back yard. She said it came from one of her kids spitting out the seeds of an apple, and it just grew. It made great juice and apple sauce. As an eating apple it was OK. But the flesh didn’t brown. I was able to dry those apples with absolutely nothing on them. Just fruit. Random accident? Or are good traits far more common than we think, and we just don’t see them because the seeds don’t get planted? When they say that a good apple is 1 in 10,000, they’re talking about a commercially viable variety. One they can sell to grocery stores and transport. I’m guessing that if we don’t want cardboard fruit and a pretty shell the number is closer to 1 in 20. In my experience, probably much lower.

Cherries are a problem for me. I suspect that the sweet cherry varieties are so inbred that they have a hard time surviving. I put maybe 30 seeds in the bag in October. Three germinated. Two survived transplant. In the past I have planted hundreds of cherry seeds. Most didn’t come up. Most of those that did had obvious problems like no chlorophyll, variegated leaves, missing seed leaves, or seed leaves inside the stem. The rest randomly died when they looked healthy (only two got to that point). The two from this year look good so far.

At the same time I have 8 apricot seedlings and 4 almonds, one of which is already developing the “bush” form that I was hoping for (since the wind never stops blowing, I thought a bush form might work better).

In my old yard I had a grape that was a first generation cross between an Interlaken and a Concord. It had the color of the Interlaken, the smell and taste of the Concord, but it ripened early summer and continued to put out more fruit until frost (Interlaken trait). Out of five seedlings kept, two were some variety of Concord, two were crosses, and one never fruited. First generation accident? One in 10,000 chance? Not a chance. Some of the seeds I will plant this year are descendants of that Concord/Interlaken cross and I’m excited to see how they turn out. Others are full Concord, but likely no pure Interlaken, as it’s technically seedless.

Plant your seeds. At worst, in my view, you’ll have firewood in a few years.

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Wow, that’s fascinating.

Yeah, I figure the apple seeds I’ve planted will give me something good. I saved the seeds from apple trees in my neighborhood. There are a lot of great apple trees in my neighborhood, and no bad ones. I figure I can safely assume I’ll get something good, and I may even get something great, especially since I know the mother tree I saved the seeds from was a great one.

Of course, I’m not particularly picky about apples. I want sweet, not sour. I like juicy. I like a long storage life. I prefer crisp to mealy. But mealiness doesn’t matter for dehydrating or apple sauce, so I can always use anything mealy for that.

I have bought a few specific varieties of apples. Ein Shemer, because I like the idea of a heat-tolerant Golden Delicious. Hawkeye Red Delicious, because it’s a real Red Delicious, which is my favorite variety (I grew up with them in New England – they’re so good). Arkansas Black, because I love the idea of an apple with a really long shelf life. As for the rest, I’ll be happy with seedlings. I’m sure the seedlings will mostly (or even all) give me good fruit.

There is one more apple cultivar I badly want to track down, which is My Jewel. It’s incredibly hard to find. It apparently tastes like banana. I find the idea of an apple that tastes like a banana very funny and entertaining, and it would be fun to make crosses with, so I hope I can find scionwood eventually.

So yeah, I tracked down my favorites to make sure I would have them. I think it would be fun to use them for breeding, too. Once I have those, every other apple tree I grow can be whatever, and I’ll decide what to do with them after they fruit. :slight_smile:

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Putting this here, since it is related.

I’d be very interested in starting an almond landrace. I have some questions, however:

If I started with only “sweet” edible almonds, what is the chance that I’d end up with some “bitter” (cyanide) almonds? They sound far too toxic to have around.

Similarly, I’ve got peach trees. I know there are peach/almond crosses out there, so crossing is possible. I assume any such cross would potentially have the bitter pit traits of the peaches. How likely are such crosses if I don’t intentionally make them?

Is there some way to easily deal with this issue?

@Lauren,

I have the same problem with cherry trees, they keep dying. Have you tried Nanking Cherries? It is a bush, they thrive here, perhaps for you as well.

Maarten

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It looks like sweet is a dominant trait, so that means bitter could, in theory, always be hanging around in a few members of the population.

Chemical Markers to Distinguish the Homo- and Heterozygous Bitter Genotype in Sweet Almond Kernels - PMC.

I suppose the best way to get around the issue would be loads of careful record-keeping.

You could find out which individuals are heterozygous by planting every individual tree’s offspring together as sibling groups. Then you could cull every member of that sibling group (including the sweet ones) and the original tree if any of them turn out to be bitter.

Carol Deppe goes into that as a strategy to get rid of unwanted recessive traits in Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties.

Probably the simplest way to identify heterozygous individuals in one generation would be to deliberately cross every individual tree with a bitter tree and see if half the offspring are bitter.

I say “simplest,” but . . . obviously, that would be extremely time-consuming, space-consuming, and produce a lot of unusable trees for a long time, as well as adding more bitter pollen to the area to contaminate the offspring of surrounding almond trees that aren’t yours. So I definitely wouldn’t call that a good approach.

Probably the best approach, if it’s possible, would be to study whether there are any dominant visible traits that are closely linked with bitterness. If so, and especially if there’s one that can be seen in sapling stage, that would make it easy to cull any unwanted trees before they reach sexual maturity.

I have done peach-almond crosses, both accidentally and on purpose. The female parent was a Halls Hardy almond, which in itself is a cross. They were crossed with a nectarine tree that was about 20 feet away.

Unfortunately the oldest was just starting to bloom when I sold the property so I don’t know what kind of nut it may have had.

The almonds I am growing now were harvested after the nectarine tree died, and so far I don’t see any that look like peaches, which is how I previously identified the crosses. There were other peaches around, just not that close. The nectarine seeds and peach seeds I planted have never produced a tree with visible almond traits.

Pictures of a healthy almond seedling and a healthy peach.


I have grown Nanking cherries in the past, and a bush form would probably work better with my constant winds. I do want to try sweet cherries, though.

Yes, I’d say just plant the seeds. That’s what I do. I have a small group of apple varieties that do well specifically in my region. I just plant the seeds from these in a pot, grow them on a season in big containers then plant them out. I’ve about 40 apples growing from these seeds now. I’m doing gages now that may or may not have crossed with some plums. Going to do hazelnuts next when they are mature enough to fruit. Local provenance hazels crossed with some named varieties. Photo is of our oldest seed grown apple. Its about 15 years old & produces masses of apples that are bit small in size but, very tasty. I have another apple tree from the same batch of seed/same year that I bonsai’d but, its yet to flower. I actually just repotted & pruned it. Maybe it will flower this year. :grin:

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This thread is very interesting, and I’ve been thinking about tree landraces quite a bit. Here in Denver, fruit trees tend to get caught by late frosts, and there isn’t enough heat for most nut trees to reliably set fruit. Just the kind of challenge that landrace gardeners like!

Somebody commented above that making a “classic” landrace from fruit trees would be difficult due to space and time constraints. Thinking that over, I came up with the following idea that I want to try.

This spring, I will ask around for pits and stones from any locally grown peaches, plums, or cherries, and plant them this fall. I would let them grow for a full year, selecting for winter hardiness and general vigor.

I already have rootstocks that would be compatible with these species planted; they’ve been in the ground for quite a few years now, and I’ve never got around to grafting them. In fact, the Lovell peach rootstock trees produced a nice crop of decent peaches last year.

So in the seedling trees’ second spring, I will graft them onto the rootstocks, putting as many as possible onto each rootstock tree. (The rootstocks are large and branched.) This would speed up the flowering of the new seedlings. As they flower and fruit, I would purne off any that were inferior or that consistently got frosted or were more diseased than average. The pits from the resulting fruits would be planted to form a new generation of seedlings to be grafted onto the trees. Over time, the overall quality of the fruiting branches on the tree would move in the right direction. I would also distribute any promising looking cultivars, and surplus seedlings, to the neighborhood, with instructions to return pits.

If I understand it right, this is how Burbank went about it. And the result should be much faster evolution that is generally possible with seedling fruit trees.

Of course, this depends on my actually getting around to grafting each spring…

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I also am super interested in local fruit tree adaptation. I worked on getting some apple seeds this fall. I didnt want to use commercial apples, because I figured the odds were not in my favor in surviving the north east. But I did actually reach out to Out On A Limb orchard in maine, and they were very kind in selling me seeds and i will have some more 1 yr old seedlings coming to me from them this spring, which is super exciting that theyve saved me an extra year and already have a lot of good genetics for delicious and hardy fruit trees.

Since then, I’ve also identified oikos tree crops which sells hardy varieties that appear to breed true but are more genetically diverse.

I also have gotten cherry seeds and plum seeds from experimental farm network.

I agree with the different traits might not be bad perspective. Like just because one fruit tree isnt as good for eating, it might be perfect for jelly or pickling.

Also I am still laughing at the image of a guy walking around and slingshotting fruit seeds into other properties🤣

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Oh and i know fedco lists many crabapples as culinary or cider apples, and i think crabapples tend to be hardier, more able to grow on their own rootstock, and quicker to start fruiting. Plus the smaller fruit would be more likely to be increased nutrients, if im not mistaken. So my thinking would be that crabapples and crabapple crosses are the direction that mitigates a lot of the downsides to landrace fruit trees and might be one of the better paths forward.

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The start to my zone 3 apple landrace! Got some pink seedlings in there, and i am surprised by and happy about the variation in big to small seedlings, with even more just barely starting to sprout.

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Ooh, how exciting! May you get many delicious apple trees. :slight_smile:

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I have apple seedlings coming up, too!

I direct sowed some seeds from some delicious apples grown in my neighborhood right where I want apple trees. I am very pleased to see some of them sprouting. :slight_smile:

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Me too! 270 sprouted so far, the plan is to plant them on 2’ spacing as a hedgerow. I expect many will die to frost, but they’ll be within the dog perimeter to keep deer and moose away. Then I can either graft onto something more precocious if I choose to do that work and record-keeping, or just forget them until fruit starts happening.

Going to buy some pollen in this year to pollinate the two trees that do super well here, to hopefully get some flavours and add them to the hardy apples I have.

I also got some scionwood from a friend in town who has an older, really tasty apple tree so I can add it to my collection.

I’m very happy with the diversity showing up already in these little ones. Pink stems and pinkish leaves! The top picture is my homegrown seed (a transparent apple, an eating crab, and a fragrant tiny crab likely in there), the middle is from @skillcult and is mostly Wickson seed (the Wickson crosses started out the most vigorous) and the bottom is my friend’s Kingston Black seeds he sent me from a quite cold climate (means they’re likely crossed with hardy things).

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Oh, good, so planting apple seeds two inches apart in the hopes that they’ll grow into an apple hedge is realistic? That’s what I did when I direct sowed my apple seeds last fall! I’m thinking an apple hedge would be delightful.

Two feet! The seeds are planted into these cells when they start growing, and will be planted out at 2 foot/60cm spacing.

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Ahhh! Ha ha ha! Okay, then. I was thinking I would be letting the weather and drought thin out the least well-adapted ones for me, so I imagine I’ll still be doing that. :wink: