Long shots are fun!

General Discussions
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I have a new greenhouse. It has 130 square feet, nice sturdy metal poles, and a flimsy plastic covering. I’m heating it only with rain barrels filled with water. So far, it seems to consistently keep the air about 10 degrees F higher in there than outside. I’m hoping that as I put more water in there, that margin’ll become higher.

I live in zone 7b, which means it gets down to about 5 degrees F on the coldest nights.

Naturally, like most gardeners, I have perennials I want that can’t handle my zone. The purpose of the greenhouse is to keep zone 8a and 8b perennials safe through the winter. Then I can get away with some fruit trees I couldn’t grow normally. (Grin.)

Buuuuuuuuuut I had this brainwave the other day. Why not use squash plants as a canary in a coal mine? They die at about 28 degrees F, which is the same as most zone 9b perennials.

I got the idea because I was opening up a squash and saw some seeds that had already sprouted in there. I was about to compost those, and then I thought, “Wait! What if I give them a chance to live?”

So I put them out in my greenhouse, with no protection other than being in there. They’ll almost certainly die. But if they live, and stay alive all winter, that means either:

a) It’s not going below 28 degrees F inside, after all. Hello, zone 9 fruit trees!
or
b) I’ve got some pretty awesome squash plants to save seeds from.

Either way, it’s a win! :smiley:

And the cost is zero, since I’m only planting seeds I couldn’t store, anyway.

It doesn’t matter how unlikely it is. It’s totally worth giving it a try. :wink:

Have you ever given a long shot a whirl, just because it seemed worth a try, no matter what it seemed like the odds were?

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The idea could be good, but not with squash. They are too tender and 28F could be the limit (although sources I have seen say 31F and that seems more likely), but they can die easily even if temperatures are just above freezing for long times. They could die even if temperatures never go below 50F if it remains there for long. Also saving seeds from seeds that sprout might just encourage that trait and I don’t think you want that.

Tomatoes might be better for your experiment. They aren’t that easily damaged by long cold period over freezing, but their limit is also a little below freezing. They also might die before their limit if it stays cold for very long as well as from diseases, but I would say they have a better chance than cucurbits. The same might work with peppers as well. I have had them volunteer on my classed balcony and survive weeks of just above freezing temperatures. Once I also chucked some extra pepper seedlings there way too early. About half survived although most seemed to have some form of a rootrot in cold as they took some time to start growing after temperatures improved. Maybe it would be better to have a variety of species. Potatoes and peas might work well too. Potatoes get frosted right at 32F, peas might take 20-25F with leaf damage. Both should do quite well even if temperatures stay just above freezing for weeks.

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Good point about not wanting to encourage seeds to sprout inside the fruit.

Tomatoes are an interesting idea. I may try direct sowing some in there in, say, January, and see if they can sprout and grow. Maybe put some transplants in in January as well. Either experiment should yield useful data.

Peas in my greenhouse are definitely a plan. :wink: I don’t even consider them an experiment – I’m just planning to grow them. My hope is that they’ll do great through the winter in the greenhouse. Brassicas, too.

Ginger and turmeric are going to be test plants this year, too. I’ve bought some roots at the grocery store, and I’m sticking them into the ground in the greenhouse. If they sprout in spring, that’ll be a good sign that a zone 9 plant can keep its roots alive through the winter in a greenhouse with mulch. If they survive this year, I can use those same plants next year as a test to see if they can keep their tops alive through the winter. If so, that’ll be an excellent sign that I could try some zone 9 fruit trees.

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I got mix feelings about that.

I do not want my seeds or fruit spoiled because zucchini and pumpkin seeds sprout inside.
But on the other hand I can make a hole and plant directly my spoiled fruit and plants will sprout. Less work than saving seeds.

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(Laugh.) I can see that.

Well, and don’t forget that you can always eat sprouted seeds that you don’t want to plant. They’re basically microgreens.

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I think I have seen a mention of ginger surviving zone 7 winters. Probably possible if roots are mulched deep and location is in southern latitudes were cold periods are shorter and there are warmer periods in between to stop ground from freezing deep. I would think that in your zone with greenhouse it shouldn’t be a problem. Another thing is if there is need for it.

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Cool! That’s neat to hear!

I certainly don’t need ginger, but I like it well enough, and will use it if I have it. :slight_smile:

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I meant that there isn’t need to overwinter them.

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Oh, I see! Sorry I misunderstood you.

Yeah, I’ve wondered if there’s a need to overwinter it in a greenhouse, too! Hence the reason I’ve put some more ginger roots under deep roots in other places around the yard. You know. Just in case. :wink:

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Long shots are fun! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head for what seem to me to bethe most important criteria of good long shots: possible, cheap, and multi-faceted. I see no reason why overwintering squash in your zone would be completely impossible, you’re not losing any resources trying it, the effort to try it could be minimal, and even were it never to work it would still teach you!

I have a (for me) ridiculous number of soybeans I inherited from a friend. We don’t use much soy in our house at all. I broadcast a bunch of them back into the yard in August and they grew very nicely, predictably stalling around the time of our first frost. They winterkilled soon after in harder frosts. Free cover crop.

In the very unlikely event that any survive the winter, wouldn’t that be a neat thing to play with?

In the much more likely but still unlikely event that one or more of the beans survives the winter ungerminated and sprouts in the spring, wouldn’t it be cool to have soybeans that have potentially been epigenetically activated to weather cold?

This is actually how I’m favoring beginning to select for cold tolerance with non-hardy plants, by putting them in their final location and letting them freeze.

I did this with runner beans this past season and got plants, though in the end the challenges of pod-setting with most germplasm of this species, the location, the weather, and other conditions (voles everywhere) meant they eventually winterkilled (or at least died back) without producing seed.

If other plants want my winterlopers (:drum:) there and they survive until spring as embryos, I believe the population stands a much better chance of being measurable more resistant to cold than the same seed population planted end of season.

I have identified mechanisms to support the potential of this approach and have anecdotal evidence. I am not aware of any breeding efforts that follow this system, though I know Chris Homanics and I’m sure other breeders deliberately stress seedlings.

I also have cheap seed and an approach that takes little to no effort in planting and maintenance.

Together that is enough for me to feel quite happy trying it, and to be quite happy even if all my long shot plants die and all I manage is to enrich my soil and my understanding!

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Off seasons can be a blessing- nice to have a break from harvesting. Even better if you can come up with a handful of stored/preserved crops to tide you over.

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So far, signs are good that things can survive in my greenhouse. I’ve taken a bunch of baby plants outside to the greenhouse because I wanted to grow more-important-to-me things under my grow light instead. So far, they seem to be all right. That’s pretty great: even though they’re all things that are hardy to my zone, tiny seedlings tend to be fragile. If they keep surviving and I can plant them out in the spring, that’ll be awesome.

The black nightshade will be a very interesting test. I just took a few out today. I got a better germination rate than I expected and don’t have space for all the mature plants, so I popped the smaller seedlings into pots and took them out to my greenhouse. I don’t know if they’ll survive, but if not, that’s okay!

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After the first summer, the black solanum naturalized and started coming up every year as volunteers.

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