Using my vermicompost in seedlings or not

I’ve been trying to figure out what’s wise. I’ve heard two things. Start your tree seeds in the poorest soils possible so they actively start looking for microbial/mycorhizal partners and another theory is to expose your seedlings to the widest array of soil life possible from the start, because later root bonding is unlikely.

That’s quite contradictory if not totally contradictory.

I have quite some seeds from differing climates now through the exchanges and i’m starting up early tomatoes, Big Hills to cross with, peppers, TPS, an aubergine grex and the reds of Physalis.
I’ve been wormcomposting and concluded the best way is the lazy way, just create a big mass of soil and don’t harvest all the time, just find outside sources. So the worms can dive down and hide in summer and winter and there’s always enough moisture and breeding grounds. It’s worked very well i believe. But the place where i compost got full.
And i’ve got a lot of new seeds from all over which i’d like to give the best of here combined with what the mootherplant has attached into their seedcoat, which will add to my soil microbiome diversity i’m sure.

I might not be a typical landracer in that perspective. I don’t try to NOT improve soils. I’m on poor soil. But that’s because i like to eat and share with folks. I can’t wait for years…

I’m interested in any thoughts of anybody on the subject. Angles and insights are as valuable as people who tell me conclusive facts, because it’s all pioneering isn’t it. We’re figuring out…

start job, getting the finished bottom compost in the back.


red wriggler colony

i’ve thrown out a cardoon flower, seeds sprouted!

that’s the composted foodwaste

job done

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We try to have a soil as microbially rich as possible by means of having a diversity of living roots in the soil as much of the time as possible (minimum of four botanical families). We almost always have mulch on the soil too and we try to grow this in situ.
An example: we are about to sow garlic. The process is rake off the mulch, clear out anything unwanted, water well, broadcast seeds (flax, coriander, spinach, cereal rye, rocket), add a layer of compost (only 1 to 2 cm thick), plant garlic, water again and finally cover lightly with mulch. If everything grows we’ll have six botanical families
This is the way we garden so this is what our plants need to adapt to.

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My desired approach is similar to what Ray mentioned. While I do appreciate the method of “programming” seeds to do well for the long term by starting them off in less than ideal conditions, I also think that part of the programming is to make sure the endophytes can be introduced pre germination phase. Im not sure how much diversity of endophytes exist in a diluted liquid of vermicompost, but I do think soaking the seeds in this prior to planting into a challenging environment will help. It will be these microbes that help the plant adapt more readily to the challenges, and acquire the sustenance they need for survival.

Having the minimum of 4 plant families diversity as recommended by Dr Christine Jones makes sense to me to also help bring in that sociobiome for quorum sensing.

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Hi Ray, what compost do you add on top? Your own or storebought or from animaldung?
I broadcast seeds every so often in the beds like Parsnips or Salsify, preferably from parents which popped through the ground cover of White Dutch Clover mostly. It’s usually covered by something adding sugar into the soil. Daikon hasn’t worked. which is a shame, but Parsnips seems pretty wild and like Salsify has a strong root breaking up the soil and leaving a rotting plug when dead. I’ve got a German Sorgho which looks like it has survived the winter of -12 celcius. AT first i was very happy with that, but i don’t know if it’ll die after this season then to leave a big root in the soil, or if it’s behaving like a perennial…
But these three mentioned keep up right well by themselves, is your cereal rye storm proof? Or does it just know it’s more stand-alone and grows thicker stems and wider and more stalks than high up…??

Hi Arthur. Do you mean you’re not sure how much diversity exists in vermicompost? I always thought it would be as rich and diverse as what we add. But maybe not? I gathered that from here and there, from guys looking through microscopes counting microbes, fungi and flagellates in aerated compost teas. I go on walks in spring and look at big healthy trees, scrape some soil from under them, make a bucket and dilute in pond water, dilute and watercan it around the garden and project, never forgetting the compost bin. I thought it’d take root there. Do you think the stomach of a worm will eliminate all these bacteria and fungi to a like basic bland not so diverse at all? Any info appreciated.
A sociobiome i get but quorum sensing goes over the top of my head. Good scrabble word. I can go and look it up, but maybe for educating purposes could you enlighten me in the comments?

We use whatever compost we have: sometimes just composted plant material from one of our cold compost piles (we have two) or scrapings from the chicken yard. The garlic will get chicken yard scrapings.

I doubt that our rye is storm proof. It’s just from a small seed packet I bought a while back and it turned out to be very easy to thresh so we will keep growing it.

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Hugo you will do neither good nor bad by integrating vermicompost in your seedlings. It is as if you change the amount of worms present on your soil… in other words you should not expect extraordinary or catastrophic results.

I just use pure compost for seedlings that I do not make in open ground but in bucket because my soil is too clay and cold for that. I never burned a seedling because of that.
I assume that the ash from the spread chimney and crop rotations that pass legumes like fava beans and beans is enough to stabilize the fertility of the garden. I am not looking for a rich terrain but to adapt my landrace strains to the terrain as it is.
I don’t want to make my crops dependent on a whole bunch of imported foreign material that wouldn’t be sustainable.

However, when I have compost in abundance from a landscape cousin, I put a small layer over the entire surface in the winter, in order to increase the rate of organic matter gradually to increase my water retention capacity useful for the summer drought, and darken my land to warm it faster in spring because it is its fault. It also maintains the microfauna of the soil by providing them with food. In the coming years I intend to integrate massively homemade Biochar for the same reasons with a more sustainable action than compost but especially to turn as much as possible of C02 from the sky that is slowly asphyxiating us. :fire:

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Salut Stephane, i can’t find a lot of information about it, but logic dictates that the way i’ve used the vermi compost system garantees maximum diversity. I’ve added soils from different areas, if i go somewhere and encounter a rich soil inside a forest, i bring a bucket home. I add biochar as a refuge for those bacteria, i’ll chuck in clay which the tile pottery has so kindly offered me, i’ll add water from the pond which contains the plants from many lakes, rivers and streams and is diverse in itself, the food the worms get is very diverse as well, anything once alive goes in. If i bring in salads, i’ll bring in like a bucket and select for beautiful leaves. Half goes to the worms. I don’t know what i can do to make it more diverse.
The worms intestines have a basic set of bacteria to digest, but they encounter differing food scraps so it will adapt somewhat.
I use the diversity the outside world offers to influence the vermicomposting system and then spread that in the gardens through aerated compost teas and mini dropping bombardments coming from planting out the seedlings.
About how much my doings help diversifying my soils we could argue, i don’t find that particularly interesting, i’m sure it will help varying from somewhat to lots. I’d be happy with somewhat already.
I’ve listened to some podcasts by scientists who are quite honest and humbly admit the scientific method is insufficient to figure out what is doing what exactly because of the millions of differing factors and because of the exponentially increasing speed of what we do know about soil biology and food webs, getting an integral picture is complicated. But fascinating.
I’ve read trees of power by Akiva Silver who concludes everybody has got their own picture of what a soil is. Which i find fair and amusing, but it doesn’t help much when you have a question like i do.
What do you and others reading think when i try both? Meaning to grow them out with not much biodiversity around their rootsystem, so they have to look for connections and also the majority of seeds offering greater diversity from the start so they can pick.

in my work I am in contact with nurseries that do research on the subject in connection with scientific laboratories. The current results on trees are that if you bring mycorrhizae and bacteria from the outside in a very short time they disappear and do not really have time to have a benefit for the tree. On the other hand, if the laboratory takes a sample of the soil from the site, extracts the good microfaunas multiply them and then puts back at the foot of the tree planted the action is beneficial in the long term.
Excited by these bio-amplification techniques, we carried out tests on series of trees (young and older, different species, different years) always leaving trees of the line not inoculated as control tree.

We have the following feedback: 0, nothing, nada!
no difference in vigor, growth, or leaf color
yet in laboratory and test condition it looked very interesting, with beautiful test plots where one could not deny the interest.
I’m not saying it doesn’t work but there are so many factors (weather, technical route, …) that come into play in an outdoor space that it’s a bit like playing the lottery.

the easiest way to make your own opinion would be to make a simple test protocol, plants with your vermicompost, other without very far and compare the results. You may have interesting and different things depending on the types of plants and certainly also varieties.

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That’s very interesting Stephane. So in fact me going on walks gathering soil samples on walks from good looking healthy trees around my own area and spreading this combined microbiome throughout the garden is as crazy as playing the lottery.
But i’ll enhance the effect if i first multiply in the aerobic compost tea…
OK, that’s feasible!
I’ll start doing it that way then.
Despite the discouraging results of the tests you’ve seen, i keep introducing new plants to my garden which 99,99% of people do not. I’m counting on those plants having specialized exudates creating niches in the microbiome that might be filled by the few surviving and adapting microbes.
I guess in lab conditions the beneficial microbes do not face the pressures of the number game. When i grow mushrooms for instance and introduce them in my natural habitat that’s difficult. The perfectly adapted local mycelia are so numerous it’s only with a big blob newcomers stand a chance. But once established and adapting they might well be key to easier introducing other species from southern places.
Did you play around with Pascal’s Poot’s seeds? As he rarely waters, his seeds must have some amazing adaptive genetic properties being able to make some amazing connections.

yes Hugo I think you raised the big problem of science at the moment many things are evaluated in laboratory or experimental plots that sometimes use up to the sterilization of the soil by steam to limit the unknown parameters of the life of the soil which could confuse a study result.
A garden is not that, all are already different with controllable parameters such as the composition of natural soils, practical, cultivated plants… etc
There are also parameters that will never be controllable: weather, chemical elements that arrive by rain, an exogenous bacterium that you could have brought back from a sample of land that you bring back from your vacation, the history of your plot…

On paper, with common sense and according to scientific research, local plants with local bacteria are the winning duo… but everything is so unpredictable in life and plants !

Yet I am connected with botanical gardens and collection, and I can tell you for a completely obscure reason and I would like to understand the reason : rare plants and trees from the South USA: California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and North Mexico: Baja California, Sonora, Chihuaha, Cohahuila are very sprouting plants (see more than in their natural environment) in several gardens in France and Western Europe.
Yet we do not share the same latitude that corresponds more to that of Tunis, not the same microfauna fungi bacteria (plants are imported in seeds without soil), not the same climate or soil…
With so much interest, I became particularly passionate about the plants of this place of the world. I introduce them and gathered here to make a garden partly dedicated to better study them…and I feel a very good vibrations in their company!

So why? my intuition, plants are very opportunistic and evolutionary
We are experiencing a great climatic upheaval, plants are under stress in many natural environments of the planet and have begun survival processes (migration, mutation, introgression…)
These regions are a hot spot of biodiversity because they are the crossroads and starting point between what migrated north or south. Today it is a meeting point and a dead end, the things of the North migrate south and that of the South to the North by finding themselves stuck on this central zone.
The plants are thus stuck down and certainly put mechanisms of exceptional survival still unknown to take advantage and the opportunity of the man who moves them. As the domestication of humans by plants (and not the opposite which sponsored so logical) remains a track of work of some researchers. For having already spoken about, neurobiology of plant is something whose advances are spectacular and really disturbing (cf Stefano Mancuso).
There could also be a reason related to the fact that this place of the earth has already received one of the biggest upheaval that the earth is known with the fall of the asteroid that created the Gulf of Mexico. Such amount of energy, radiation… certainly still have an impact millions of years later in the genetic memory of these plants…

All this to tell you Hugo that we do not know much about plants with our 46 chromosomes (the vegetable equivalent of the Olive tree). Some plants have arrived at forms of evolution so complex that a Morus nigra with 308 chromosomes, and 1440 for a fern that holds the record. This genetics must have a purpose, but are we evolved enough to understand?
The only choice left for us to observe, experiment, document… to try to re-establish connections with the extraordinary world of other living beings who have never lost this ability.

Ps: for pascal poot, no I do not use these seeds, because I make mine and never water the tomatoes once in the ground. The seeds of this gentleman must above all have a sacred genetic memory of the organic matter that he brings in unreasonable quantity. They would not necessarily be well at first with my unfertilized clay soil.

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Hahaha it was about vermicompost Stephane. Plants domesticating humans not the other way around! You’re ready for a podcast with Shane Simonsen as well you!
On topic, yeah i have no idea why they would thrive here those American plants, but i gathered they discovered now that plants take up beneficial bacteria up through their rootsystem and integrate them into the seedcoats of their offspring. What’s your take on this dynamic?
It was a scientist explaining just this limit of science in one of @ShaneS podcasts. An Austrian lady who was very amused to find out a young student had managed to get to study the influence of the moon on plant germination. A subject which was a sure career killer when she was young and asked to study it.
We’re at the end of the ropes. Which is a subject that is totally deserving it’s own thread. If you don’t, i will. But let’s keep it on topic a bit. So if you have something to say about the bacterial seedcoat-ship if that’s a myth as well, please do!

Sorry to spin sometimes, my brain is sometimes very messy :confounded:
Hugo you’re right to reframe me, excuse me

I read like you, all these things better explained by science. Of course this must happen, I would not allow myself to question the science…but in practice sometimes I see things sometimes not very logical… :thinking:

Why aren’t my homemade tomato seeds faster than the one which come from several hundred kilometers ? why on some vegetable my homemade seeds are stronger? Why do some grex from the USA work better at home than my own grex? Why is this sometimes not true the following year ?
this should logically not happen since my seeds should have more information and be able to interact with my soil.
What I meant by that is that so many parameters are in play that it is difficult to do for the better regarding microbiological amplification!

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I was talking specifically about endophytes. Microbes that go inside of the plant tissues and cells. What I am wondering is how effective a well made vermicompost tea with lots of diversity can be at introducing these organisms. I don’t have the answers, but im sure they are out there.

Im sure there is a benefit, but im also wondering just how effective?

The combination of pre germination phase seed soaks with microbial compost teas + plant diversity in the soil is what I believe to be key.

Your questions are sending me back to looking at Dr. James Whites presentations, as well as those by Dr. Christine Jones.

I don’t understand it well enough yet to give you a satisfying answer myself.

Here are the videos im now finding myself re-watching. Ill try to take some notes and post the insights here if I can make the time for it.

https://youtu.be/oBTqOMzXZAo?si=6yr4fFQcapNVlsU5 (Dr James White on Rhizophagy)

https://youtu.be/K8_i1EzR5U8?si=AOLKW219dhGk_u0E (Dr. Christine Jones on Quorum Sensing)

What you are doing reminds me of what Dan Kittredge from the Bionutrient Association shares about. He says that the number one best return on investment for his crops is to inoculate the seeds with microbes. His low tech method is to go out and gather soil from many different microclimates, and from where plants clearly look healthy - then mix that all together, add water, and use as a seed soak. This is basically what you are doing, isn’t it?

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I’ll watch those too! Thanks.

Yes and no, i do take soil samples with trees on walks, they have many mycorhizal fungi connections mostly. I hori-hori it from the tree, do a little mini meditation and “ask” the tree where it won’t hurt, fill the hole with leaves or cow dung i found closeby… I wouldn’t know where to get soil from other gardeners except by accident when exchanging plants or trees. That would be more microbial based. Which is what annuals prefer.
But still i believe that it’s not so black and white, there are so many micro-organisms in a cubic centimeter, more than people. So moving that around, creates something more diverse, more stable.
That’s what i do. But Stephane says i’ll need to multiply them first instead of dumping the soil in watercans and hose that at plants and trees. I do that this year with the molasses and 24 hrs bubbling. And then watercan them around the garden.
I started that 5/6 years ago and i have the feeling the garden exploded and felt more adult. Completely subjective and no way of proving…

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Quorum sensing is the phenomenon that if bacteria sense they’ve reached a critical build up they can switch on genes that make them behave a certain way which is profitable to them. But it can also make them switch something on in a plant if they reach this critical build up or a higher level of build up than the first one and then the plant starts behaving in a way which benefits the bacterium which in turn creates a benefit for the plant for instance a rhizo sphere around the root system harvesting nutrients and protecting it from diseases.
Would you agree?
That documentary is so mind blowing, how with 26 covercrops a farmer on the shittiest soil in five month can get to that rich soil. I’m always struck by how this kind of info then is a dead-end. Is it even true? I believe that lady, but it could be lies. But if it’s true, what were the 26 cover crops and why don’t all his neighbors copy the technique?
It’s not even that important to find out which ones exactly, but i would love to try something like that.

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Farmers can be a very conservative and suspicious lot! I live in a rural area. I know a number of farmers using various regenerative agriculture techniques. Just one example: I visited a cattle farm where the owners, Craig and Karen, had implemented holistic planned grazing and over just a few years were seeing significant improvements in pasture quality. We were standing in one of his paddocks right next to his neighbour’s property. Craig’s paddock was lush and green but his neighbour’s paddock was brown, with dead or dying grass and bare patches of earth. Craig’s neighbour sees this almost daily but just says that Craig and Karen must be very lucky with the rain!
I see this sort of thing all the time. It often takes a crisis to push someone to think differently.

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if we transpose the method used in the nursery laboratory to your garden, for your tests I would tend not to do this:

  • do not take land too far from your garden
  • do not take soil samples from trees because they do not have the same symbiosis as annuals such as vegetables
  • do not make the bio amplification with a tea compost if it is not a garden full of compst where you grow because there also the favored microorganisms will not be the same

but rather do this:

  • Sample soil from your growing vegetable feet
  • make bio amplification by growing your samples for several weeks (soil + water + oxygen + nutrient solution such as molasses? )
  • to introduce your bacterial strains by watering your seedlings with, or your cultivation boards
  • make control areas without this protocol (half of your seedlings, half of your boards) to see if it has an impact or not
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Haha, totally. I live very rural too. So lucky to have two openminded farmers closeby. It’s the big problem, getting respected by farmers, neo rural (of the hippy esque style with high education stand no chance). So they’re isolated and clit together.
I’m a builder and help the community fix barns and gutters, bringing plants to grandmothers and family and we’re shuffling manure, so i can get away with my djembe and ‘weird’ artist city friends visiting. And the crazy Indian Cucumbers that look like dinosaur eggs get a good laugh. But yeah, it’s finding that balance.
And the reality is that life in the countryside for so long was so tough, anybody who could, left. It didn’t leave the most refined.

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I loved reading this thread and appreciate your approach of maximum diversity. In our Microbes course Dr White talks about the importance of some seeds for going through digestive tracts to pick up the microbes living in animals intestines. Just want to make sure you guys have seen those particular lessons. Dr White definitely would love your idea of maximum diversity from everywhere, the more the better, and letting the plant decide which to build relationships with.

I don’t know about planting tree seeds, but for vegetable seeds I feel like it’s possible to have high diversity without high nitrogen. I have noticed thriving seedlings when I use sifted leaf mold from a tan oak forest near my house. On walks I look for the fox and bear droppings to add to the seed starting mix.

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