A tip from Carol Deppe about overwintering

I’ve started rereading The Tao of Vegetable Gardening, and this tip really stood out to me! I didn’t notice it at all before, and it seems really helpful.

She said you don’t want to give fall-planted crops much (if any) nitrogen fertilizer in fall, if they’re meant to overwinter. She said nitrogen makes them grow faster, which may seem great, but the cost is that the actual cells of the plant are larger, and that makes them more vulnerable to damage in freeze-thaw cycles.

She recommends waiting to give them fertilizer until spring.

Huh! That seems like really good advice! I wouldn’t have thought of it.

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Very interesting. The Nitrogren part makes sense. Correct me if Im wrong but doesn’t nature drop fall leaves creating a leaf compost to naturally fertlize plants slowly through out winter? Especially when Snow acts as a blanket rather than trying to cram in all the fertlizing in spring? Perhaps nitrogen fertlizers make sense in spring as opposed to other types in fall?

IDK, I just remember Paul Gouchi talking about how Nature fertlizes during the entire winter as opposed to how farmers do in Spring.

I’m pretty sure I’ve read that green leaves are a nitrogen source, but brown leaves are a carbon source. I know I’ve read that deciduous trees move all the most valuable nutrition out of their leaves before dropping them, and store it in their roots instead. When spring comes, they’ll move it back up again to make new leaves.

Now, when annuals die, all their stored nutrition dies with them and goes back to the soil. But I don’t think that’s true with perennials. I think they store as much as they can to use again next year, and that’s why most are able to start vigorous growth much earlier than annuals.

Interesting observation I’ve noticed, green = recently living while brown = dead with only carbon left. Does it make sense? or am I off?

Yea, that makes sense. I’ve heard fall is the best time to plant a tree? what do you think?

You’re correct about green leaves versus brown ones. The same thing happens with chop-and-drop mulch, if I’m remembering correctly. As it turns brown, the nitrogen off-gases and is no longer available to the soil. That’s why burying nitrogenous materials in the soil is far better than laying them on top of the soil, if you want the nitrogen to reach your plants.

Of course, I could be wrong, so someone please correct me if I am. :wink:

Fall is usually the best time to plant a tree. But I know of two exceptions.

  • Trees that aren’t quite hardy to your zone, but which you’re planning to try to protect and grow anyway, are best planted in spring, so they have all summer to get established before the serious trial of trying to survive the winter.

  • I’ve been told that pawpaws should only be transplanted while they are actively growing. Unlike almost all other temperate trees. If you try to transplant them while they are dormant, they’ll die. If you try to transplant them while they’re actively growing, they’ll often survive. This sounds very odd, but the woman who told me that is a local gardener who has several pawpaw trees, and who bought quite a few that died until she figured out what she needed to do to get them to survive. :wink:

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Hi, if you create a compost pile and continously load it with let’s say green grass trimmings. The new addition acts like a tarp and helps prevent the gas off.

So if you’re overwintering a compost for spring use. You can keep adding spent plants and greens as long as you keep adding.

Naturally you will run out of things to compost for the year and will lose the top layer of nitrogen, however the small price we pay.

One can always add a little more from the good ole human body liquid golden fertilizer before spreading. Just make sure there is an oxygen exchange for the bacillus to survive to help break down the nutrients.

  • Jessic
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Yep, you’re absolutely right! I personally prefer to dig a hole and dump all my compostable material into it and cover it over, that way it’ll compost in place and nothing will be lost to the air. But that does take a lot more work than a compost pile. A compost pile is a great option, too!

And yes, hee hee, you’re absolutely right about urine being a great nitrogen source. I don’t worry at all about sticking wood, cardboard, and paper into my soil, because I add lots of urine in with them. They won’t tie up nitrogen in the soil – they’ve got all they need right there. :wink: Then I cover the hole with a few inches of soil and plant seeds on top. No other fertilizers needed. It’s such an easy way to create soil fertility with stuff you already have on hand for free!

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Also, welcome to the community! :smiley:

Thank you, I guess I’m just on a lazy gardener kick. I am breeding all my plants to surface sow. Corn, beans, Amaranth, mustard, summer squash, winter squash, sunflowers, Lamb’s quarter, Peas and many more.

I then force them to germinate from rain water and dig their own holes. That way all I have to do is sow and harvest. I’m so bored lol… I even started experimenting with electromagnetic farming and because of my surface sowing my endomychorrizal fungal network is completely intact and functioning very well.

I over crowded my plants with different crops and let the bremuda grass and weeds crowd areas so I’m forcing my plants to fight for nutrients and water.

I’m cultivating some aggressive Amaranth, I just offered to send some in for next year’s seed if there is an interest. My Dent corn is handling this like a champ while my flint, sweet, and popcorn are struggling.

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:heart_eyes: NO FLIPING WAY! You’re Breeding Lambsquaters! That’s EPIC, we’ve gotta trade seeds sometime. DM me.

YES YES YES!!! Aggressive Amaranth for the WIN! Have you incorporated some wild amaranths into your amranth landrace? I’ve been researching Amaranth & found the Cultivated Amranths cross super easily with any Hybridus complex species (I’d argue they’re all the species cuz they cross so easily). Outside that, Amaranthus retorflexus is also closely related species in the subgenus Amaranthus & should cross easily too! There is also another subgenus of amaranth that won’t cross with the domesicated amaranths like subgenus Albersia. If your serious about breeding amaranth, lets chat. Check out this phylogenic tree

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Yea, I’ve also thought of this. This makes a lot of sense once you realizes Peppers are truly small trees hence why you can repot them to grow the same exact plant next year.

Very interesting, maybe this is one of the limitations the Tropical plant compromised on to allow Cold Hardiness. But seeds shouldn’t have this problem right? I’ve planted fully dry Dormant pawpaw seeds in a pot & had them grow & Germinate. Thank you for the advise, time to Research Further!

Good point! Pawpaws are a tropical tree in theory that is somehow cold tolerant enough to be temperate in practice, so there’s a very good chance of it having weird things in its genes.

I keep wondering if it’s possible to cross a pawpaw with its relatives and get some of that sweet, sweet cold hardiness into a custard apple or a cherimoya . . .

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Yes hectically it’s possible and it does happen (Altho it’s more of a taxonmic technicality). Pawpaws (Asimina spp.) & Squirrel Bannana (Deeringothamnus spp.) Have crossed, resulting in an intergeneric hybrid. This was observed in the field by reaserchers studying Florida pawpaws.

Below is a Phylogenic Tree of Pawpaw showing how the Deeringothamnus genus is nested within Asimina.


Here’s the study : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287798292_Phylogenetic_relationships_of_Asimina_and_Deeringothamnus_Annonaceae_based_on_morphology_floral_scent_chemistry_and_Inter-Simple_Sequence_Repeat_data_1

Personally, I don’t think Deeringothamnus should be considered a separate genus because it was easily able to cross with the other Asimina Species. This is why I said it was possible only on this taxonomic technicality. In reality you aren’t making an intergeneric cross, you’re just crossing Asimina despite what some taxonomist say.

Now that being said, Pawpaw (Asimina spp.) are in the [Annoneae Tribe] of the Custard Apple/Annonaceae Family. The closest genera to Asimina are Disepalum & Diclinanona. Not much is known about them, I don’t even know where I can find photos of them. Regardless the Annona Genus is next. To cross Asimina with Annona is gonna be quite the genetic jump. If you make it happen, you deserve a scientific award!
Here’s the broader Phylogenic tree of the Family!

Is “squirrel banana” this species?

If so, it looks like it’s been categorized in the Asimina genus these days.

Uh I think so, altho squirrel banana is such a generic name, that some refer to any florida pawpaws as Squirrel banana.

Yea, just consider that Derringothamnus Genus under Asimina. Nature already does, as they do sometimes cross in the wild.

Reguardless I really hoping to do some pawpaw breeding with Florida pawpaws. Florida is like the center of diversity for Asimina. Wish I knew someone who lived in florida who could find these seeds or grows them themselves. Maybe someone on these forums is willing to trade from Florida. Would be fun to trade pollen sources via post cards, I wonder if it would work to remain viable ?

Hmmm. @bibiqiqi, I think you live in Florida, don’t you? Have you seen any wild pawpaw trees near you?

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