GMO Purple Tomato by Norfolk LANDRACE

Norfolk has recently made a Fully Purple Tomato!

They said it should be hitting Grocery Stores in 2023? Has anybody managed to find the fruits in stores yet? Has anyone managed to get seeds? Can we put them into the Tomato Landrace?

Norfolk managed to crank up the Purple Gene in the tomato using Purple Snapdragon genes. There were already purple heirloom Tomatoes but none as deeply purple as this.

According to their website “Now available from select Restaurants, Chefs & Markets”. Does anyone know what these select Markets, Restaurants or Chefs are? There is an email section at the bottom of the page, anyone tried using that?

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This is on the back of the new Rare Seeds catalog, says it’s the purplest non-gmo (not available until early '24)

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They look ill.

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That’s Awesome! Wow, Normal Breeding has Made a Purple Tomato just as Fast! It’s also so deeply purple. The Purple Anthocyanin is natural in normal Tomatoes, just not cranked up or turned on fully. It’s impressive that Natural Breeding would find a way to turn it on.

Also Since this Purple GMO Tomato is mostly focused on Color, I don’t think it’s flavor will be as impressive as the Non Gmo Purple Galaxy Tomato, since the focus was on the purple color right.
Thank you for showing me, that a Non GMO Option exist.

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Apparently the Purple Galaxy tomato sold by Baker Creek was actually a GMO according to this Reddit post. Reddit - Dive into anything

According to Norfolks official site, that purple Galaxy Tomato is 100% confirmed to be a GMO. If you scroll down to the bottom of FAQ you will see it.

Honestly I’m kind of disapointed that normal breeding wasn’t able to do it. BTW Would using a parasytic plant to bring the purple gene into tomato be considered GMO? A Situation like this could happen naturally so…?

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So… Burn them. And then send the ashes to the moon.

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Well it turned out that it is they didn’t do the right test at the beginning that’s why rare seeds removed it from their stock and burned it

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Although it turns out the non-gmo version doesnt actually exist, honestly I would expect the other way around wrt to flavour.

Traditional breeding to make a deep purple tomato would involve selecting for colour, likely to the detriment of other selection criteria. With gene insertion, Norfolk can choose an already tasty tomato variety (they’ve chosen an unspecified inbred heirloom selected for taste and other criteria) and insert the genes for anthocyanins without affecting the rest of the breeding selection.

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Thanks for the additional information. I didn’t see a mention of it on Baker’s site, but the “notify me when it’s back in stock” for Purple Galaxy now directs to a 404 error. At least they pulled it.

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Wait so they actually Burned them?

That amazingly simple, It can’t be that simple tho? When you insert a Gene you don’t know how it will affect everything else hence you still have to use Traditional Breeding along side the GMO to continue right?
Also if you did incorporate this GMO Tomato into your landrace does that mean everything you breed with it will be GMO too? How small of a %tage does the GMO Gene have to be before it’s considered non GMO?

People have been using Radiation to shift genes & Cause Mutations, I wonder if that’s also considered GMO?

Hmm… Would using the Parasitic plant Dodder (Cuscuta spp.) to transfer genes between 2 incompatible plants be considered GMO? The plant sucks nutrients from host plant & thus sucks a little of the DNA Naturally. This would be known as Horizontal Gene Flow but not GMO Right? What about a plant virus, is it GMO technically?

Yesterday Astra Zeneca removed a perfectly safe and tested genetherapy from the market. It was almost obliged to take it. Oh it was safe and effective, we were such chickens and grandma killers for not taking it. Everywhere people are dying from it and the bought up media conglomerates are silent on the politicians stopping examinations. We were not to be in society, ostracized and everything. I’ve seen a nurse without income who took the first jab and never was so sick in her life. They threw her on the street, the lady was grey and sick with stress, had kids and all. And we were right all along, Ivermectine Hydrochlorocine, go outside , guthealth hug be love grow spiritually, be in nature, grow, grow, grow!
Did that whole episode made me more of a sciency guy? Nope. Au contraire mon ami!

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I don’t know what that means. But damn that’s sad AF.

High level process wise, it really is that simple. Norfolk has been very open about their process. They started with with an inbred red heirloom (let’s call this one Tomato1). They used DNA splicing to insert two genes from purple snapdragons that are known to code for anthocyanins into their initial seed stock. Then they grew out those seeds - any seeds where the gene insertion was successful yield deep purple tomatoes that are otherwise identical to Tomato1. The seeds from that initial F1 growout (call it PurpleTomato1) are what Norfolk is selling.

The use of an inbred heirloom to start is key to this process working. If they used a hybrid or landrace of tomatoes to start, the seed they sell would yield a wide range of tomato phenotypes (all purple, but otherwise variable) as you would in any F2 saved seed from a hybrid or landrace. Not good for their bottom line, as their target market is commercial/market growers who expect a level of consistency.

Anthocyanins do have a flavour, so PurpleTomato1 surely tastes a little different from it’s unedited parents Tomato1…more anthocyaniny. Also, Norfolk havent disclosed which inbred heirloom they chose to start with - it may not be to your personal taste to begin with.

In terms of future breeding and how many generations to “remove” the GMO insertion - thats more of a yes or no question than percentages. Anthocyanin traits are dominant and this is a very localized change. In F2 and later crosses, either the tomatoes you’re growing out are deep solid purple (contains the inserted GMO genes) or they’re not (no GMO genes).

Norfolk restricts the sale of purple tomato seeds (including sale of seeds from future crosses with other tomatoes) but encourages gardeners and commercial growers to save and share seeds, even play with breeding new purple tomato varieties for personal/community use.

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Yes, using a parasitic plant (or virus, bacteria etc) as a vector for gene transfer is exactly how GMOs are made.

What makes a lab GMO different from natural occurances of wild species genetically modifying each other is that theres humans choosing exactly plants will be involved, which genes will be targeted (thats a whole topic of its own), etc, often in combinations that would never occur in nature (ie using species from incompatible climates as the donor, recipient and vector species)

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Why wouldn’t a Solanaceae Fruit like a Purple bell Pepper, Purple Eggplant or a Purple Pepino Melon do the trick? Why go Outside the Solanaceae to find the Purple Gene? Is it because it’s safer for Comsumtion?

Wait so GMO still require Traditonal Breeding Techniques to Finish them? Hmm… It’s almost like GMO is better than using radiation in hopes that a Random Gene mutation, mutates in your favor.

Now that’s Amazing! Hold up, What if we did this for the Promiscuous Tomato Project? or does the Purple color exist somewhere in the Wild Tomatoes already? In other words Landrace & Gmo are Fully Compatible with each other right? Cuz if we mess something up Nature will let us know by Survival of the Fittest right? hmm is this how we make Tropical Fruits that Can’t Survive Frost handle it better?

How is that Enforcable? By how many generations until the genes are too blury to tell? I like the Personal use but does Shipping Cost count as the sale of seeds?

So… Thus GMO are 100% Natural then? Is this an example of Horizontal Gene Flow then? I’ve heard stories of Red Corn making the Grass growing nearby red also because of the Fungal Connections. Perhaps Fungi have been doing GMO’s for out whole life & we are just now learning how to mimic it ourselves?

So basically when a Human is facilitating the gene transfer, then it’s GMO? Hmm… Wait but Don’t we (in Traditional Breeding) also choose exactly which plants will be invovled? & Sometimes we choose the genes to be targeted indirectly by Taste, Texture, Size, Yield, Performance, etc.

Also Have you Heard of Ivan Michurin who Hybridized Sorbus & Aronia to make the Intergeneric Hybrid Genus Sorboaronia. Would that be considered GMO? Since they belong to different genera. Or how he Got Cherry (Subgenus Cerasus) to Cross with Bird cherry (Subgenus Padas). Both belonging to completely different Subgenera with the Big Prunus Genus.

What about Brassica x Raphanus = Brassicorapahnus?

What about Michurin Exploiting the “Plasticity” of Young Plants? The Effect was so strong that a 1 year old Hybrid Pear, grafted onto a 1 year old Lemon Seedling made pear leaves evergreen & Glossy why the other pear Seedling Hybrids next to discarded their leaves.

Why wouldn’t a Solanaceae Fruit like a Purple bell Pepper, Purple Eggplant or a Purple Pepino Melon do the trick? Why go Outside the Solanaceae to find the Purple Gene?

None of those plants are solid bright purple all the way through. Purple eggplants are white on the inside, they just have purple skin. Purple bell peppers are green or red-brown on the inside. If you just want a tomato with anthocyanin in the skin or lightly expressed in the flesh, you dont need any gene insertion at all - lots of tomatoes with some anthocyanins already exist. They’re just not solid purple all the way through

Wait so GMO still require Traditonal Breeding Techniques to Finish them?

Genetic insertion is a very expensive process that is performed on individual seeds or through tissue culture. “Traditional breeding” is “required” in the sense that growing a tomato plant from 1 GMO seed/tissue sample is a much cheaper and easier way of producing 1000 GMO seeds to sell than performing 1000 gene insertions.

In other words Landrace & Gmo are Fully Compatible with each other right?

You could absolutely include Norfolk’s purple tomato in a breeding population. Some of the resulting tomatoes in your landrace would be solid purple. Likely some other landrace gardeners would not want seeds from your solid purple tomatoes, as some do not want to include GMOs in their landraces.

hmm is this how we make Tropical Fruits that Can’t Survive Frost handle it better?

Gene insertion is probably not an effective way of breeding cold tolerance because cold tolerance usually depends on many, many interdependent genes. Gene insertion is only feasible for traits controlled by a very small number of genes with few interdependencies.

They’re never blurry. The tomatoes either have the inserted gene sequence, or they don’t. 100 generations on, the F100 tomatoes that are bright purple all the way through inherited the whole inserted gene sequence. Tomatoes that are not purple all the way through did not.

Let’s give a human example. I have a rare 2 gene sequence mutation in my eye colour called central heterochromia (my irises have 3 concentric rings of different colours- you can look it up it’s pretty neat). This is a dominant trait I inherited from my mom, who got it from her mom…etc at least 6 generations. This does not mean I have 1/6 as much heterochromia as my ancestor 6 generations back. Each generation that passed it on inherited the whole trait. When I have kids, I have a 50% chance of passing central heterochromia onto each child. If one of my kids has central heterochromia, they get the whole sequence and they have a 50% chance of passing it on completely to each of **their ** kids. If my kid is born without concentric rings in their eyes, they did not inherit the mutation at all.

Yes.

However, I would not say that just because the tools we use to mess with things in a lab are found in nature that all lab meddling is “natural”…at that point anything anybody does is “natural” ie breast enlargements are natural because they’re made from silicone, which is made of silica which is found in nature.

And yes, all plant breeding is a form of genetic modification. But many people feel there is a difference (moral, safety, whatever) between choosing a more purple tomato to save seeds from in the field vs playing with viruses to out genes from unrelated species in a lab

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Yo first off thank you for answering every point I brought up.

Are they selfing the Tomato to ensure the Purple Trait?

Would this require a separate page? Imagine if one of my Tomatoes has GMO Genetics & I submit it to goingToSeed but didn’t know?

So basically it’s more of tool to nudge stuborn genetics into something you want? Only in cases where you know what gene needs to go where right? How would you actually know since 1 gene could code for multiple things & have unintended consequences. I’m curious how Epigenetics play their role here, I’ve read from Matt Powers book that Epigenetics are like Off & On Switches for genes. If so is it easier to just use Epigentics instead of GMO? or are they’re specific cases where GMO are the only way to do it? In other words, It’s impossible to get fully purple tomato through epigeneitcs & can only be done with GMO right?

Thank you for explaining. hmm If I cross the GMO Purple Tomatoes with non GMO red Tomatoes and get Red Tomatoes, Does that mean the offspring has no GMO DNA in it? Since it’s only the purple color that’s GMO right? Everything else about the Purple Tomato is non GMO? What if it was recessive & shows up next generation?

I see, in other words natural vs unnatural is a spectrum, not a Black & White Dichotomy with some breeding techniques being in the grey zone.
Hmm… do Naturally occuring plant virsus technically count as GMO? I’ve heard people kill Roses for this reason.

Domestic tomatoes are mostly selfing so practically, yes, generally GMO tomatoes would have only genes from their mother. But also, presumably the purple gene gets inserted in both copies of the recipient tomato’s DNA. In a field of all GMO tomatoes, the offspring should all be purple even if crossed (just like in a field of only inbred Brandywine tomatoes, all offspring will be Brandywine).

Also, yes, if a descendent of your purple tomatoes yields red tomatoes (even an early descendent like an F3), that means the GMO purple gene did not get passed on to that plant. Those seeds should be genetically indistinguishable from a non-GMO tomato.

I can’t really speak to epigenetics, legal implications or Going to Seed swap rules. I’m just a gardener who took a couple classes that touched on bioengineering over a decade ago.

I will say the development process for something like a GMO tomato probably includes some likely substantial amount of trial and error and botched attempts in between the original before they land on a donor gene, vector, and process. Some examples of scrapped attempts might well include a tomato where they find out “oh shit, this purple gene sequence we isolated in corn (for example) also is a duplicate coding for hard skin” before landing on a marketable result.

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I see. For now I’m sticking to Michurin Methods, Traditional Breeding Techniques & Grafting to make Hybridization since I don’t have access to edit genes like that (Unless I find the Dodder plant & make it attached itself to both plants I want to cross). Perhaps it’s for the better. How would the average Everyday Gardener edit Genes in plants? is Crisper but small scale available to the typical gardener?

This shows the complexity of Genes. Thank you for elaborating on this, I’ve learned a Crap ton!

Gene editing is a complex process that afaik requires quite a bit of specialized knowledge/years of targeted research by teams of scientists as well as lab equipment to get anywhere useful with.

I doubt genetic engineering is really a viable path even for a gardener who happens to have a dayjob/academic credentials that give them access to a fully equipped bioengineering lab to produce anything unique for their personal garden. I could easily imagine I’m wildly wrong about that and there’s grad students sprinkled around the world growing hot pink cucumbers and spicy carrots for funsies . Engineering students do come up with some impressively ingenious uses of the equipment available to them :rofl: But in any case it’s certainly not an option for the average gardener.

Even purchasing GMO seeds is in most cases restricted to commercial buyers of large cash crops - corn, wheat, soy, etc. GMO seeds like purple tomatoes being marketed to home gardeners is a new thing. It is an indication that the research and development cost of GMO seeds has dropped dramatically. For better or worse, genetic printers might be the 3D printers of the future.

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