Soybean landrace

My goal is to make tasty soybeans for growing in the UK using lazy organic methods, partly to make good soybeans easier for folk to grow here to support a more plant-based diet, and also specifically for local production of nattō.

Soybeans rarely cross naturally, so, I will have to cross them all manually. I have 8 varieties from Northern Japan, one of which completely failed to germinate. The beans were extremely small (and black), the size of aduki beans, and were harvested in 2021 at the latest, possible before. I wonder perhaps their size was a disadvantage in their longevity? It’s a pity because it’s so rare to see such ones outside of Japan, and the small soybeans are favoured for making nattō, though, I have been making nattō from regular sized soybeans without issue.

I also have 2 modern varieties bred in Ukraine, and Fiskeby V which was developed in the 60’s in Sweden. Funnily enough these have been harder to germinate than the Japanese ones. And I am hoping to receive some Swedish hybrids though importation issues have delayed that, so they might be better to test directly outside come planting season if I do manage to get them.

As for those 10 I have already, I am growing them indoors, in an attempt to ‘speed breed’ them. My facilities are not up to scratch yet, I will be improving my lighting situation but these lights seem to be doing well so far at least. I also need to work out how to cater to their hunger for nutrients while being confined for their whole lives to such small spaces for their roots. I will be moving them in some days to slightly bigger communal pots. What they are in now (most of them) is actually nearly the same size as some in soybean speed breeding papers. However, they used all the special nutrients for them. I have planted these in almost pure leaf mould, gathered from the forest floor, with just a little perlite added. Here’s a photo of the main group:

The top row has received a little watered down pee about 3 days ago, which might be why the leaves are darker and look a bit better, though it’s hard to tell, it might just be that they are different due to getting less light, being on the edge of the lighting system currently.

I would really love advice on how to feed them. I’d like to use pee as much as possible since it is so convenient and free and sustainable. But I guess there must be some kind of salt limitation there also, so, advice much appreciated regarding that. Then, whatever else I also need to give them. I have a manual wheat grass juicer which I use to extract stinging nettle juice while crushing the leaves into a dry-ish pulp, I recombine them for my food. Would it be useful to use that to juice some weeds to feed to them directly? Or must the juice be fermented first? If so, lactobacillus fermentation or…? And advice on how if so - generally when I cultivate lactobacillus I use salt to keep out other organisms, but again we can’t be doing that for the soybeans.

In the end, even if I have to buy a product to feed them, I’m ok with that. The top priority is to successfully have them flower and manually cross them and produce viable seed, all as quickly as possible. If I can do that with natural food for them, great. If I cannot, that’s ok. Once I have F2 seeds, organic an out in the fields will be the priority but until then, the only priority is getting F2 seeds.

Here are some more photos.
Many of them have developed cracks in the stem at the bottom.:


And here are several photos to show the leaf issues - some lighter green blotching; some white spots (though ignore the very white spots on one plant, that was LED light burn before raising the lights); and some brown spots turning to leaf curl. I have wondered that these might even be 3 different mineral deficiencies.




I plan to move them soon into long trays 10cm deep (right now their cells are around 7cm deep) in rows. So that would be the perfect time to add whatever more to their soil. Welcoming suggestions!

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What a great project, can’t wait to see these grow up. You’ll be able to teach a class on bean pollination when you’re done.
You might get great answers in a cannabis forum. They absolutely love giving advice on nutrients and indoor growing.

For plant juice recipes, have you heard of Nigel Palmer? He has a book and some resources here

https://www.nigel-palmer.com/

Have you looked into sea water for trace minerals? More for tomatoes not beans, I remember beans being salt sensitive. Your urine fertilizer shouldn’t be too much of a problem IF you flush your pots occasionally. But that’s another great question for cannabis growers. I grew hydroponic tomatoes with urine and seawater and they were really healthy.

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Ah thanks for the tip. Although… I did watch a video of a guy growing… maybe it was tomatoes or maybe something else… with cannabis grow lights (awesome!) in a grow tent, and his plants were suffering, and he reckoned in the end it might have been because he used growing medium for cannabis. And he said something about cannabis growers wanting low nitrogen? And even ‘flushing out’ their plants? I didn’t understand really what he was referencing but … it made me wonder if their needs might be rather different or even conflicting? Or…?

Thanks! I’ve realised I don’t read books. But I’ll take a look at the resources there!

Oh, interesting - I had read about some specific tomato species being salt tolerant and that being special. The Galapagos species for example. So I kind of thought that in general sea water will be trouble. But hmm… so, maybe in small doses… which for me would mean sea salt right? I mean, sea water = sea salt + water right? But … hmm… I wonder, maybe pee has a better goodness:salt ratio than seawater for them? Hmm… and flushing… hmm… I wonder if the liquid approach might conflict with solid + microbiome approach? I think that thought in me surfaces after contemplating your video of you helping your friend out with seed starting mix… which makes me worry at the idea of having to ‘flush’ much.

But regarding the hydroponic method, that’s interesting. I won’t be doing that, not this time anyway - gargling pipes of circulating pee might not suit my living room to well, especially for guests. But I’m curious, your tomatoes lived off water, pee, and seawater alone? Nothing else?

Also, regarding salt, any idea on quantifying salt tolerance of tomatoes? Like… hmm how would we even do that… like many grams per month per plant or something like that? I know it must also depend on plant weight or at least root surface area or root mass or something… but, I wonder if we have at least any rough indication of how much they can handle? I actually have black salt, which would have been sea water I guess like 20 million years ago or something like that? But black because rich in minerals, smells like rotten eggs when it touches water. It’s nice to put a bit on a slice of tomato actually, or on a banana, or in an orange juice, though not many non-Indians appreciate it! Also used for digestive medicine. Anyway maybe they’d like the minerals in that!

I also have a bag of ‘kombu powder’. I thought it would be like proper kombu, for using in my food. Turns out it was not the same species used in Japan, no wonder it was so cheap! Horrible stuff. Perhaps I could mix it in with the soil? (Ratios?)

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Like everywhere there are tons of incompetent growers…worth trying to find them for what you’re doing probably. I think that Korean Natural farming groups are usually mostly (taken over by) weed growers.

Pee alone is too high in N, that why the addition of something else is good to get the NPK ratio more correct for plants, when they’re not buffered by natural soil. People use ashes to boost K @Lauren knows more about this… This is all information I’m rapidly forgetting.

You should get that seawater book! He goes into a lot of detail, I suspect you’ll get very inspired and want to try it. There’s a lot to learn but it’s worth it.

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I remember that Carol Deppe talked about fertilizing with urine in The Resilient Gardener.

From what I understand the nitrogen in urine is in nitrite form. It requires some bacterial decomposition before plants can use it. Similar to aquaponics, nitrates must be converted to nitrates. I think that with a small watered down amount, the bacteria present in the growing medium can handle it. But for serious amounts, a bacterial filter of some kind is probably needed.

Depending on your setup, I would just use the urine to make compost. Whenever I have had a compost pile, I make sure to pee on it pretty often.

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I was (and am) trying to figure out non-chemical nutrients for Kratky hydroponics.

A combination of ash, eggshell and urine created an almost complete fertilizer. I neutralized the alkali in the ashes with vinegar and added a dime, an old nail and a penny to each bucket for micronutrients.

I am still working on a natural source for sulfur, (garlic appears to be way too strong) and nitrogen needs to be added periodically.

Understand that the amounts used were tiny. Too much ash and the roots stopped growing entirely and the plant died when it fruited. Also do not use any kind of sulfur additive for beans, as beans seem to be far more sensitive to sulfur than most garden plants.

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The split at the base of the stem is likely because the plants grew too quickly at some point.

It looks like the interveinal chlorosis is just on new leaves? That might be iron, manganese or nickle. Old and new leaves would likely be zinc.

Straight yellowing on new leaves (veins do not stay green) is sulfur.

Could you please give me a better picture of the dying leaves? It looks like you have several nutrient deficiencies.

Urine is not just nitrogen. It’s also all the water soluble vitamins from your food. So while there is nitrogen in it, your plants will also get traces of many different nutrients. As I remember, the npk of urine runs about 10-2-2. If you eat foods high in specific nutrients, your plants will get those nutrients in different amounts.

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It’s amazing to see how far you are with the soybean project! Looking forward to seeing further updates.

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Well, you got me thinking more about it. Reasons to be careful of adding too much nitrogen: these are legumes and have even less need for it than other things. Too much causes disease, the kind of fast growth that splits stems. Attracts bugs/molds/damping off, kids of talked about in the soil starting mix thread. That’s why farmers who fertilize with nitrogen end up needing more pesticides. Plants actually become more digestible to insects. Vicious cycle.

John Kempf talks a lot about the problems with nitrogen fertilizer, here’s one that might be good.

Why trace minerals & micronutrients are vital to crop health, disease resistance | Regenerative Ag - YouTube

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@Justin I wouldn’t think soybeans would need much in the way of added nitrogen, but I’ve never tried to grow soybeans inside. I don’t know of anyone that has.

Being the pioneer at something means you might just have to figure out yourself, a bit of trial and error may be called for. Try different things as far as pot size and soil composition and keep a close eye.

In my limited experience at starting plants inside, about the thing I know for sure is to be careful not to keep the soil overly damp, especially if temperature is on the cool side and light is limited. Although based on your photos, I’d say you are way, way ahead of me on indoor growing.

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Nice project! I’m also landracing my soybean here to have a source of homegrown natto! But I’m doing it outside, direct seeded, so that’s different challenge than you. For the fertilization, I never fertilized mine (but again I’m growing in different conditions) and they grow fine without it. I’ve used urine on other crops in the past and the trick for me was to dilute it: 1 part urine with 9 parts water this way you can use it without any salt issue. Keep us updated on your project, and if you want we could exchange seeds!

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Your soybeans, do you inoculate them? I saw that farmers, they buy a product to inoculate their beans with the bacteria so they can make nitrogen. But me, I just stuck the soybeans into the leaf mould. So, maybe they cannot make their own?

Well, I’m certainly not the first, but, I am doing plenty or trying and plenty of errors :laughing: And yeah, pot size, I was intending on bringing those in the larger cells into an even larger home, but I am contemplating whether I should or not now. Actually being in a small pot stresses them in a way that can make them flower sooner. So, I have to study a bit more to see what I should do… speed is a very high priority for me right now.

Yeah, thanks, I have been trying. One I actually neglected just too long and killed almost all of its leaves. It drooped quite suddenly before I realised the soil was quite dry! That was one in the smaller cells, which I am definitely going to move, soon. Those are not pictured below.

Yeah I live in this room so it’s warm enough for me :slight_smile: The only heated room in my small apartment. Sometimes I even leave the heating on the the plants when if by myself I would turn it off! (Electricity and gas are really expensive here now!)

Thanks! That’s cool that you’re landracing them outside. And that you’re making nattō! :heart: So, how are you landracing them, by hand pollination? I guess that if we just grow different kinds together in a field, it won’t actually landrace, right? Just the varieties will keep growing separately, due to the extremely low rate of cross-fertilisation in soybeans?

Yeah, mine have so little soil, I think that is what makes this a big issue. But it seems I need the small space also for the speed. Although if I need to I would consider making the space a bit bigger for them but then, that might only buy me a couple more weeks or whatever.

Yeah, I actually had that ratio in my mind, when I completely didn’t measure but just diluted to what seemed maybe right.

Thanks for the offer of seed exchange! What varieties have you started with? And, how much crossing have you achieved, do you think?

Oh, interesting. I heard that the opposite is true, if they don’t have the bacteria to make it. But… maybe that was incorrect? Maybe I should be searching for wild legumes to wash their roots and water that on my soybeans… although 1) I have no idea what they look like or if they grow here and 2) I expect they might be out of season!

Do you mean disease is causing the fast growth? Or that was two separate things? Hmm, if the fast growth is all that split them then, maybe it’s ok - I was worried at first but they seem to be fine with their stems so far, I think. I wonder though, how this went with the pros when they speed breed soybeans, they have fast growth for sure. I wonder maybe they could grow fast but without splitting if they had not been missing some nutrients? Or, maybe it is because the moisture is not constant, but fluctuates when I water them?

Oh I found a nice looking creature today, friend or foe? He/she was with in sudachi cell waiting to happen:

Thanks for the link Julia, I’ll try to watch that tomorrow.

Ok thanks.

Sure. Also you can zoom in - these are high resolution images.


In this photo you can see, the plants at the back have darker green leaves and look better. There are 2 variables, 1) they are on the back, so they get less light than the two rows which are closer to the centre. 2) They got pee days before any of the others. I think it is probably the pee which makes them better, but I cannot be certain. Anyway, since it didn’t seem to harm them, I gave some pee a few days ago to all of them. And perhaps too much to the two I will explain below - they had the worst brown spots so I thought I see what happens if I give them more pee than the others. Maybe it was over the limit.

In that last photo, two plants have a different symptom than all the others, and that is new. I think probably they got too much pee. I did try looking up images of soybean leaves exposed to too much salt but could not find any, and, this one photo is badly out of focus, sorry! Basically the outer parts of the leaves are becoming grey and the tissue there is dying, way faster than the ones with brown spots. But I think the plants will survive. I circle those parts, one circle for each of the 2 plants:

Also, a couple of days ago, I put some black salt in water and gave it to all of them. Not very much. Did I explain black salt somewhere in this thread already? I cannot see it now, maybe it was in the other post. So, black salt is used in Indian medicine and food, it smells like sulphur or rotten eggs when you add water, but it is possible to like it. I have no idea if it is good for soybeans but since it is good for me, I thought maybe it is good for them too. Here it is, ‘kala namak’ in Hindi:

[Edit: I have only just seen what that Wikipedia preview says, and I’m not sure how reliable that is. It was my understanding that kala namak is natural, and I have seen big chunks of it in India, appearing as a naturally mined product. I’ve also seen a lot of pink salt there, and it was my understanding the black salt is basically the same as the pink part of pink salt but just way more concentrated in the non NaCl components. Can’t be sure of the one I have but might give that one a break for now!]

Also today I mixed a little kumbu powder with water when I watered them. I would usually like to be scientific about such procedures, but, I do not have enough soybeans. I started with only 5 of each variety, but then chose only 3 of each to continue since some germinated not well or not at all. So I am being less methodical now and just trying my best to save them all.

Nitrogen toxicity would make the plant dark green and weak in other ways, but the chlorosis and necrosis don’t fit. This is something else.

The necrosis is likely advanced stages of the interveinal chlorosis. New leaves appear to be coming in the normal color? so probably not calcium or boron, which would affect primarily the new leaves.

If it were me I would put a penny and a rusty nail in the soil to eliminate the chance of it being iron or copper (slight chance, but possible) but to me it looks like the most likely culprit is magnesium.

Necrosis of older leaves, interveinal chlorosis, leaves curled. Possibly sulfur as well, but the sulfur affects primarily the new leaves and the chlorosis is generalized rather than interveinal. Magnesium sulfate?

Whatever you decide I would move fast. The chlorotic leaves are a bad sign for the health of the plant.

What are you using as the hybridization rate? This paper suggests to me a .5-6% cross-polination for adjacent plants, which seems like plenty to build a landrace if you’ve got a few years.

(Also, Kala Namak makes tofu taste remarkably like eggs.)

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Maybe phosphoros deficiency? And then the lighter parts look like maybe magnesium deficiency? And the funny light but really small spots on darkest leaves looks like pictures of boron deficiency :laughing: But to be honest I would just expect them to be deficient in maybe everything or even if not maybe just as as if they are. I mean, is there like just some general food I can give them that they like, like kombu soup or deer poo or something? (I have both of those available!)

Epsom is actually not far from here, and we have something called Epsom salt that comes from there, should be an easy way to get that magnesium sulphate! Might be able to pick some up… thanks! And if you have any tips on less refined fixes, I’m all ears. Like maybe I should mix clay with the soil, would that be good, rich in minerals?

I have tried garlic for sulfur deficiency, since garlic puts sulfur out through its roots. It worked for a lot of plants, but beans just ended up dying of sulfur toxicity. I am still working on natural mmagnesium without the sulfur.

I use an almond shell ferment for phosphorus, but I warn you that a little goes a long way.

For general nutrients I use wood ash and eggshell.

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I was going on what Joseph said about them being so hard to landrace due to such low cross-pollination rates. Also in the page for which crops to landrace, under those not recommended because they’re “very hard”, the crossing rate was from 0.5~5%.

I’m just speculating here but in my mind I imagine that such a low rate of crossing might be good for sustaining genetic diversity in traditional settings where each family may grow multiple varieties and each village more so, like I saw in papers on rice in Laos and crops on S. America and Africa, where they were all also consciously seed swapping over long distances. And I mean, sustaining the diversity in that context of them already having crops that have become well adapted to their land over centuries/millennia. But my sense is that for new adaptation, to new conditions (like for my projects with rice and soybeans in the UK at least), we really want a far higher rate of crossing than 0.5%. That would give only one crossed plant per 200 plants also, which would mean having to grow a lot in order to get a significant number of crosses, and even then they may not be noticed and so may not even make it to F2 if they get eaten!

I guess to actually have a hybrid swarm, that method must take many years. So maybe if we just hand pollinate them we can compress 20 years or more into 2, or 1! That was my impression anyway. Although for me personally there is the added factor that many varieties might not even give any seed at all here, so manual crosses and growing indoors to try to guarantee seed production becomes not only a hyper-accelerated method but also possibly a necessity. Well, I guess I could grow them outside, hand pollinate them, and then dig them up and bring them inside at the end of the season before the weather kills them, either way for me crossing them is really important since F0 and F1 have such a low chance of success here, of the Japanese soybeans anyway.

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Ah wood ash, great idea! Thanks!

I would try just adding some good clay soil. But as was said, you may be almost out of time. Epson salt will give you magnesium fast but be careful as it has more sulfur. Dolomites is a sulfur free option that has a lot of calcium.

Clay soil would give you a good range of nutrients with no guarantee of enough magnesium to fix the problem. It should also contain plenty of good bacteria with no guarantee of the species your soy would prefer.

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Thank Alma. Yes I wanted to take a trip at the weekend to get some clay but plans had to change unfortunately. Hopefully soon! I did end up giving them some organic tomato fertiliser liquid… Also, it seems they are just about to flower!

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