What I have been up to with soybeans rice yuzu and tomatoes

[Justin]

Hi everyone, I’ve been away from the forum for a while, sorry for not responding to anyone over that time! And nearly caught up on notifications now… So, what have I been up to? Well, eager to landrace, I didn’t want to waste my winter. And knowing how important the F2 generation is, I thought I would try to get there a bit faster, with some indoor growing, hoping to bring them all to flower and then cross, and with luck have F2 seeds before the year’s end.

So, here’s my living room!

I’ve been growing 6 varieties of rice, and yuzu in front of it. Diverse yuzu seeds so I won’t be needing to make crosses in a hurry and anyway that will take years, but, raising them now to speed things up. The rice I need to cross.

Some of the yuzu now have beautiful little spikes There should also be some sudachi among them. There are some more smaller ones in other containers to the right of my setup that won’t be visible…

8 or so varieties of soybeans (2 or 3 more coming)… with some tomato seedlings in front of them (mostly wild species):

Soybeans from above - this photo I have left entirely unaltered so the colour is clear - they are hungry for something, some leaves with brown spots and curling, some with lighter spots and/or patches, probably two kinds of mineral deficiency I would think. (One of them on the bottom right has very white spots, don’t worry about that, that’s burns from touching the LEDs before I raised them).

I gave some of them some pee, waiting to see if that makes them better, it might be already… but I really have to work out how to grow soybeans quickly indoors while meeting their needs. Everything here is simply planted in leaf mould, with a tiny bit of perlite added. I did mix in a little compost to the first ones I did, like the rice and yuzu, but gave up adding that for the rest. I recently start to think I should add sand and clay to the leaf mould. I know one place I could get a little sand but don’t know of any accessible clay deposits around here. And carrying a sack of clay on my back on my bicycle from the countryside where I know there’s loads of it, might be challenging! So, I ended up buying a bag of topsoil yesterday, and will mix some of that in with the leaf mould for the ones coming up, unless anyone has some better ideas?

I think for the soybeans, which will soon be re-homed in slightly larger vessels, but still pretty small, I need something that will work. If they can live on leaf mould and pee alone that would be marvellous, though I have found people rarely respond to pee questions, strangely. So that makes it difficult to learn about, and I am worried about salt levels for them. But I am also open to other ideas of how to feed them.

And, tomatoes!

If anyone has tips on minimum pot sizes for indoor breeding - I’m thinking maybe 3 litre pots for individuals and somewhere between 10~20 litre buckets for growing several of one species together? Like for example, for pennellii, peruvianum, or habrochaites, how small do you reckon I could make their homes for 5 individuals? And 10 individuals? (And would it be much different depending on which of those species?) I’d also love advice on pruning for the different tomato species. Any special tips?

Here are the species I will be growing - most have started, some yet to arrive:

• S. pennellii
• S. habrochaites
• S. peruvianum
• S. corneliomulleri
• S. arcanum - so far, F2 hybrid with domestic though some pure might be on it’s way…
• S. chmielewskii
• S. pimpinellifolium
• S. cheesmaniae
• S. galapagense

I want to try to make some wild X wild hybrids, but also of course cross them with eating tomatoes. Especially with some of Joseph’s lines, and also with some others that may have a good chance of doing well specifically in the UK outdoor climate. So I have several mothers-to-be, some just started, some yet to start. I think the wilds will take a while to make flowers anyway so, not too much rush I guess.

My aim with tomatoes is obviously not large production, but just to get enough flowers to be making crosses. And with the self incompatible species, I want to grow enough of them to have several different pollen donors, both for making multiple crosses, and also to increase seed stock of the species itself - I can let the insects do their dance on the flowers I don’t use for crossing.

So, that’s what I’ve been up to! I hope you have all been having a lovely winter

[H.B (HasBean)]

Wow, you’re on a mission!!

I get excited about growing things indoors to shorten development time as well… my fallible thinking is that as long as the potted conditions are sufficiently similar to the desired eventual conditions, the benefits are likely to outweigh the drawbacks. It seems to my novice’s reasoning that this might be especially true when growing something that’s used to drastically different conditions from what you’ll be able to provide.

To your question about growing media, definitely check out the Starting mix thread if you haven’t already

[Greenstorm (Greenie/Erin DeS)]

Oh how fun! I’m deeply envious about a climate that can grow yuzu, it’s a wonderful flavour.

[Justin]

@H.B

I get excited about growing things indoors to shorten development time as well… my fallible thinking is that as long as the potted conditions are sufficiently similar to the desired eventual conditions, the benefits are likely to outweigh the drawbacks.

My thinking is a little different. I assume that the eventual conditions are irrelevant, and that instead, we want to create the optimal conditions for producing flowers and seeds as fast as possible. My reasoning is that selective pressure from real outside environment is basically irrelevant until at least F2 generation, and before that, the important thing is to select likely suitable parents, and make crosses then grow out the F1 gen to make F2 seeds. Sure there might be some benefit from growing F1 outside, eliminating some of them? But somehow I doubt it. All F1s with stable parents will be identical, so growing 1 or 10 would be basically the same. And if they die, they miss the audition without even showing up! Because their magic is yet to be revealed. So, nurturing them until they make F2 seeds seems to me the most logical approach, because only then does the diversity appear, and it is the diversity we need in order to benefit from the selective forces of the environment, isn’t it?

Oh, I have just realised I might be contradicting some of the core approach here - I did not mean to do that. But anyway, this is the logic which my mind is telling me - make F2s and then let them loose. (Or acquire some wonderful landrace seeds of course! Or just mix varieties together that do have some chance already - but the 3 crops I am dealing with here are all ones which for the most part are beyond the range of the UK climate, so I am pushing it).

Here’s an example - say I have rice I know can grow in the UK. Great. And I want to cross it with rice that can’t grow in the UK. The F1 is highly likely to not be able to grow in the UK. And a small percentage of the F2 generation is likely to maybe grow in the UK. So, if I grow both outside hoping to cross, which I would anyway have to do by hand, then they’re even unlikely to flower at the same time. But anyway suppose I am so lucky that they do and I cross them, I’ll only get seed from one parent. Next year I likely will get no seed from the F1s at all, but if I grow them together with the parent that does ok in the UK, some of the F1 may offer pollen to that parent, so the best I can hope for is that some among the crosses between the original successful parent, and the F1s, might survive to seed in the 3rd year. If not then have to wait another year hoping the parentA X (parentA X F1) cross might have some chance. But each time the addition from that second original parent (parentB) is getting weaker and weaker.

But if I had just made sure the F1 gave seed, I would have diverse F2 seed to plant out and a good chance some of it could survive. And I could plant all F2 and thereby the population would still be 50% genetics of both parents!

On top of that, if I had started a bit earlier, say last autumn, just by growing indoors I could have F2 seeds ready to plant by spring time!

In commercial speed breeding they even do up to 5 generations per year. Cool! However, I think for our purposes, it mostly makes sense just to indoor breed up to getting F2 seeds since we actually want to keep diversity, and let the environment do most of the work for the next couple of years, and then continue to as we also select for taste etc. However, I do even see a case for going beyond F2 for our purposes, and that is, in the case of not making simple hybrids, but in then crossing the hybrids with each other, making a hybrid swarm. Imagine what you could do with 5 generations in one year. You could start with 5 varieties, make crosses of all of them, then next gen make crosses of all the crosses, and so on! Space would quickly become an issue But even doing this 3 or 4 generations would in a single year give you an incredible amount of diversity to then unleash upon the land.

@H.B

To your question about growing media, definitely check out the Starting mix thread if you haven’t already

Awesome, thanks, I will take a look at that! Although just looking at the title, it might be a bit different - I’m not merely starting seeds. I am growing them for their entire cycle. I’ll take a look though…

@Greenstorm

Oh how fun! I’m deeply envious about a climate that can grow yuzu, it’s a wonderful flavour.

Should be ok down to -12C (10F) apparently, though people seem to say to protect them for first few years. I don’t have a proper home yet anyway, I just hope I can look after them well enough until they go into the ground! They’re so delightful

[Justin]

Another yuzu photo just because they’re so pretty!

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Wow, so nice! All your plants look so beautiful.

[Justin]

I find tomatoes beautiful plants. Sharing in case anyone enjoys them too

[Justin]

I really thought someone asked about taro, so I took some photos but now searching the forum, I can’ find that post or any mention of taro on the whole forum! Oh well, here are some taro photos 2 varieties growing, 3 more hopefully waking up soon… And, I don’t actually know if they are from different clonal populations or the same, but I did make an effort to get them all from different Japanese sources, in the hope that they would have different genetics and that I could maybe cross them one day if I’m lucky enough to catch them flowering - or maybe even encouraging them to do so. And as it happens, the two that are growing now do so far look different, so… maybe?

Can you see the water on the tip of this one’s leaf? I tasted it, just tastes like pure water. Anyone know about this? One drop like that can appear in about 1 minute, I watched it appear after I drank one. Pretty cool! I wonder if it means the soil was too wet for it or if it’s just something it likes to do…

Taro are so pretty!

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

Those are beautiful pictures!

Especially that last one. It’s gorgeous.

Looking at baby taro reminds me of my high school years, in Hong Kong. We had taro all over the place. Very nostalgic for me.

[Justin]

My Pêche Vilmorin Andrieux tomato plant, which is not actually a part of my breeding project but was direct seeded outside last year but was totally shaded out so ended up sheltering in my home, is giving really quite exserted stigmas!

A peruvianum has made flowers but not yet opened, pity otherwise I’d use the pollen!

[kdurivage (Kerrianne Durivage)]

@Justin i am interested in the questions you asked about pee. I know carol deppe discussed a bit in her resilient gardener book, but i think this was only in regards to outdoor gardens. So she didnt have any concerns or warnings about too much pee or too much salt from the pee, but i could see where maybe this would be an issue for indoor plants. I guess if no one has any info, you will just have to do some experiments and have to report back!

[Justin]

@kdurivage

@Justin i am interested in the questions you asked about pee.

Hi Kerrianne. Since then I came across this video, which you might be interested in:

Using Urine as Fertiliser

[Justin]

Quick update - spider mites love soybeans and rice very much! Unfortunately I was ill for weeks right when they struck - most but not all of my other plants survived.

And now some tomatoes are in flower. This is supposedly Solanum chmielewskii. Has anyone seen chmielewskii flowers looking like this? In my texts I would have guessed these flowers belonged more to peruvianum!

And here is Solanum arcanum, the smell is truly wonderful, and it looks so beautiful too:

Some domestics and domestic/wild crosses are in flower too, so, let the crossing begin!

[Justin]

Second tomato plant to give ripe fruits - quite delicious! I was a little impatient to try the first one, I think this is the final outside colour and it was sweet, but I was surprised by the gloriously green insides! That colour plus the lack of seeds made me wonder if this was simply because I didn’t wait long enough, though the sweetness made me wonder if perhaps this one was just parthenocarpic?

And…I have pondered the shape of tomato leaves, and now wonder if their shape has something to do with the canopy. That is to say, the way the leaf parts act as kind of ‘hooks’, almost like barbs catching onto each other - I wonder if this is an adaptive advantage to making them support each other as they grow upwards? I use a few supports on some of my plants but here are 9 tomato species growing together (plus the occasional cross and some pepper species (too small to engage in that way as yet) and you might notice another species in there ), for the most part supporting each other. A veritable jungle!

[UnicornEmily (Emily Martha Sorensen)]

That’s an interesting idea. It would be a great trait to encourage, if it would mean having no need to bother with staking tomato plants!

[Justin]

Ah what I mean is basically the shape of all the domestic tomatoes except potato leaved ones. And pimps and arcanum, chmelewskii, galapagense, cheesmaniae etc., all of them have those hookey leaves. So I think it’s more of a situational thing - though people do say don’t make them crowded otherwise they’ll get sick! (I hope mine don’t!) It would be interesting to see how the big communities of them look in the wild… I wonder if similar to this?

Here’s a pic of different species. It does vary quite a bit between accessions (@WilliamGrowsTomatoes by the way you mentioned maybe not much variation within a species but I already see quite a difference in leaf shape between some of my pennellii accessions - I have some that look like the one in this image but some that are of a different shape, and less sticky - by the way, do you suppose the less sticky ones are less useful? I was thinking maybe they might be less pest resistant but, perhaps they are still useful?) but at least this gives some idea:

Key:
Leaves of Solanum sect. Lycopersicon, sect. Juglandifolia, and sect. Lycopersicoides.
A. S. lycopersicum (LA1673).
B. S. pimpinellifolium (LA2646).
C. S. cheesmaniae (LA1450).
D. S. galapagense (LA317).
E. S. neorickii (LA247).
F. S. chmielewskii (LA1306).
G. S. arcanum (LA2152).
H. S. huaylasense (LA2561).
I. S. peruvianum (LA1947).
J. S. corneliomulleri (LA1647).
K. S. chilense (LA2884).
L. S. habrochaites (LA1353).
M. S. pennellii (LA1376).
N. S. ochranthum (LA3650).
O. S. juglandifolium (LA2134).
P. S. lycopersicoides (LA2772).
Q. S. sitiens (LA2876).
Scale bars: A, B, E–K, M, P, Q, 2 cm; C, D, 1 cm; L, N, O, 3 cm. LA numbers from the C. M. Rick Tomato Genetic Resources Center.

But as for breeding for not needing support, actually that’s something I really want. Of mine so far, Black Sea Man seems the best in that regard. The stem is so thick and strong, and quite short! And it seems to be making fat fruit quite quickly! It’d the favourite tomato (for taste and survivability) of my friend in the North of Sweden so I have high hopes for it here. Except that she doesn’t have disease issues up there and we do here, and I hear it’s very poor when it comes to disease resistance. But I’ve chosen it as a main breeding partner for wild species, trying to bring its fatness and earliness into the wild mix, hoping the wilds will provide disease resistance.

Also one of my wilding has turned out quite fat and strong, so trying to breed with that too although the flowers aren’t really exserted. Another wild has marvellous flowers but not so fat and strong, but crossing with that too. Trying so many crosses!

[Justin]

Here’s an example of 3 accessions of pennellii:

In front flowering, and behind and left, is one SI accession. On the right is a SC accession (with the bamboo support). They look so similar I actually accidentally muddled them yesterday when taking pollen!

And here’s a different one, SI, growing in hydroponics, which has much more serrated leaves. I started my germination attempt on the seeds for this one on March 19th, and it’s preparing to make flowers now:

[WilliamGrowsTomatoes (William Clark Schlegel)]

Its decided! We go to South America now and investigate the tomatoes in person!

Edit (I wish)

[Justin]

Here’s an interesting pimpinellifolium flower! This is a pure pimp. accession, and is the only one I have that’s hairy. It doesn’t have exserted stugmas, so I am focusing on the 2 I have which are exserted, but since I’m growing some non-exserted (there was no data on exsertion so I had to grow them all out to find out), and since it has other good qualities (early flowering, no cracking of fruit etc.), I’m trying some crosses with it too - today with an accession of peruvianum that is said to be compatible with some Lycopersicon group.

And the flower I chose today happened to have this unusual flower:

It seems there are 2 styles, and both are highly exserted. Cool!
So I chose to not emasculate this one. (I evidently removed the petals.) I worry that the styles may get too dry when emasculated - has anyone else much experience with crossing with a pimp mother? @WilliamGrowsTomatoes perhaps? The styles are so very thin I worry that they’d just loose too much moisture without the male parts surrounding them. Well that’s one issue, where the other is that the styles often come off when I remove the male parts for this species.

Anyway, there’s only some chance this will produce a tomato and even less that it will produce viable seeds, but I do hope I get to see how the tomato looks from such a flower!

[WilliamGrowsTomatoes (William Clark Schlegel)]

I have struggled with pimpinillifolium and some cherries and emasculated crosses. I like to use them as the male, use Walt’s technique of transplanting the entire anther cone onto a sturdy stigma potato leaf. I do find that drying out is less of a problem inside or in a greenhouse. In my open fields it is difficult.