Progress in technology and science is driven by huge investments. The investors are motivated by return on investment. In order to get a return, a product must be created or improved on in some way. The creation or improvement of products can benefit consumers in the short term yet harm them in the long run. For example, farmers might have made more money buying herbicide resistant seed in the first few years. They could fire a lot of the labors who did weeding tasks and replace them with chemicals. However, are those farmers still making increased profit now that the majority are also buying herbicide resistant seed? Additionally, are consumers better off? Did food pricing go down?
These developments are very scary. Humans were clubbing each other over the head only a few hundred years ago, and now we think we are Gods.
Of course, just like everything R.O.I. (Return On your Investment) is Important. Itâs what determines if a Project is even worth doing. So how do we get more people to adapt Landrace Gardening, I mean the R.O.I. should be HUGE!!! Itâs what got me investing in Landrace Gardening in the first place.
Hmm⌠Governments are too also just like Investors, they trow money at Stupid Useless things so why hasnât any Government trown Money at Landrace Development? They already trow money at useless studies, what could be more useful than Landrace Gardening tho? Or even Permaculture?
Most farms arenât Profitable but the begs the Question why tho? Is it because of these Bad soil Practices & Pesticides yielding less & less every year? Makes you think if there is a better way of doing it?
Well Inflation plays a role in that too, thatâs why Prices donât really go down because every Advancement in Technology reduces Price but Inflation counters/Negates that reduction.
But also itâs getting harder and Harder to Obtain Yields with the Crazy Weather/Climate we are having, therefore Food become more Harder to get.
Somatic fusion would require a fairly sophisticated tissue culture lab, but that would be a couple orders of magnitude less expensive than directed DNA manipulation. It is the kind of technique a high level dedicated backyard biologist could achieve (in fact people who live in urban spaces and dont have space to grow crops in the ground could instead be doing this kind of work in small grow tanks, along with other fiddly work like mentor grafting and wide hand hybridisation that people who do have large spaces usually donât find the time to do).
Huh Interesting, so Basically people Like me who have no Land to work with yet?
Just curious what exactly is somatic fusion? is it like Cellular Grafting? Or Grafting the Cells themselves? What makes this different from Mentor Grafting tho? If you can simply take cells from the graft union, is it not the same thing just easier?
My opinion is governments arenât actually motivated to make their citizens happier, healthier, richer, safer, etc. apart from great men who pull something out of the dirt and make it something (George Washington, etc.) the succeeding generations are nothing more than thieves and warlords. Money and power make the world go round. Landrace gardening cannot compete with the many alternatives that governments can choose from to get more money and power.
Somatic fusion is where two cells in tissue culture are fused together to create a single bigger cell. This technique can be used to create a kind of hybrid of two distinct species. Inducing the conditions to make cells fuse, then the ability to grow the single fused cell back into a whole plant, are the tricky parts of the process. Cellular grafting is close to the idea, except it is permanent.
Mentor grafting involves grafting plant tissues together, then optimising conditions for exosomes to transfer genetic material from one to the other. Exosomes are small subcellular structures that all cells excrete into the vascular tissue, which are absorbed by cells in other parts of the plant. The exosomes can transmit chloroplasts and mitochondria between species (which contain their own DNA and can continue to divide forever in the recipient species), as well as nuclear DNA. The Chinese have been studying this recently and confirmed that heritable material can be transferred. Even under optimum conditions it only happens <1% of the time. I suspect grafting between different species also can potentially transfer symbiotic microbes (fungi/bacteria/viruses) between species. Many of the complex chemicals produced by plants actually come from the microbes living in their tissues. Often plant resistance to pests and diseases is also dependent on these microbial symbionts.
As a longer term idea- it is well known that parasitic plants like dodder both steal and donate genes from their host plant species. I suspect that humans could breed a special strain of dodder to use as a gene transfer agent. This would save us from having to use high quality blades and special conditions to do grafting in the future (especially since tiny delicate seedlings seem to be the best stage for accepting foreign genetic material). Dodder is the ideal species to try this with since it has an extremely broad host plant range.
You know so many interesting things. Thank you for joining this community. And for sharing them with us. Youâre very fun and fascinating to converse with!
Damn⌠who knows I think Colleges and Universities are more easy to convince and they Convince Government Big time via Lobbing. Sooo, maybe through a University you can actually get money/Grant for Landrace Breeding/Gardening. I mean colleges/Universities number 1 customer is the Government because they will just about any price for college. Hence why College/Universities are so Expensive. Ironically I Learned more from the Citizen Scientist, Internet, YouTube and Forums like this than any College could teach me (Not to mention, College lecture available on YouTube for free about Plants). Most of my College experience was using outdated info, plus they loved using pesticides/Expensive Fertilizers and telling us how bad Invasive species are (Which donât exist in Nature because Itâs a man made concept exactly like how No weeds Truly exist in Nature). At least they mentioned no till but were oh so lacking on the info.
Itâs also just so interesting to know how the Fungi & Bacteria can actually affect the genetics of a Landrace. Really showing that Landrace Gardening x Permaculture is the way to good, and the 2 are truly hard to separate because they integrate so well together.
That raises another question, can we breed Bacteria or Fungi to help us Genetically Engineer Plants?
Michurin was right, but Chinese horticulturalists reported similar transformations from grafting fruit trees back millenia ago. Darwin mentions them in his work too, but without a mechanism to explain it Western science mostly ignored it up until now.
I would say that the power of microbiology is likely going to be a key component of future technology. There are way more backyard tinkerers working on microbiology than botany. I would love to see the development of easy to handle aggregating cultures (like kefir and kombucha) that can be used to detoxify specific crops. Microbes are really good at breaking down specific chemicals provided they have some nutrients to keep them going. Imagine potatoes bristling with alkaloids that keep all the pests away, but that turn tasty after being fermented with a special kombucha scoby for a day.
After a lifetime watching biological science find a never ending stream of completely new mechanisms and structures at the core of biology I have kind of given up hope of them ever reaching the end of it. Even if we did, the interaction of thousands of genes mean it is a fundamentally chaotic and complex system. I dont think we will ever be able to tell a computer our wish list for traits and it waves a magic wand to create the right genes. We donât really need to know where every atom goes in a living thing to form a functioning symbiotic relationship with it that helps both species go forward into the future.
Bro, Thatâs Insane. You Have just BLOWN MY MIND Once Again!!!
Microbes bred for the purpose of detoxifying crops? Absolutely Mind Blown. Iâm still a bit worried because it seems risky, like how would you know if the microbes did their job, or what if they got mutated or died off and another microbe took itâs place and didnât do the job right?
Bruh, itâs like things are Forgotten just to be rediscovered again. uhhh why are humans so lousy at keeping records of valuable info like this am I right?
Also Western science? Such a funny word but damn the cold war made some backwards theories. Sad during a Cold War, Cross Pollination of ideas between Scientist is limited. Doesnât that make the era of the internet now Super Special since we can all Cross Pollinate Ideas? Is this why we gotten so far with Scientific discoveries?
Also about the Microbiology, you know how vegans (And lots of Non Vegans too) who donât take Vitamin Supplements such as B12 lack that crucial Vitamin. Well aparently that Vitamin is manufactured by a Bacteria meaning can we landrace/breed Bacteria that can grow Vitamin B12 so we can Stay Healthy?
I mean doesnât Kefir and Kombucha also make Vitamin B12 just by the process of fermenting? Wait is this why we should eat overripe fermented fruits? Or better when we know what we are doing.
Iâm asking because Iâve read Fermented foods like Kefir, Kombucha often contain sufficient amounts of Vitamin B12 which makes you really think, we donât even need supplements do we now? This might help vegans become fully Off-Grid without relying on Grocery/Vitamin Store for the crucial vitamin because all the other ones can be obtained through food & the sun.
Duckweed also contained Vitamin B12, maybe we could Landrace Duckweed for that purpose? If so how would we make Duckweed save to consume? How sterile should the water itâs growing in be to still allow Vitamin B12 Bacteria to Produce that Vitamin?
Thatâs unironically awesome! Basically the old saying, the more you learn, the more you realize that there is more to learn really rings true huh?
Hmm maybe this is why we will never be able to Fully Understand God. Is this what being created in the image of God means? We can get close to God but never be God, which is the purpose of Christianity.
I bring this up because of how Landrace Gardening can relate to it. https://goingtoseed.discourse.group/t/is-landrace-gardening-repenting-against-the-sin-of-evolution/1388/5
âUnilateral incompatibility (UI) occurs when pollen tubes reach and fertilize the ovules in a cross made in one direction, but are inhibited in the stigma, style or ovary in the reciprocal cross.â
E.g. Solanum pennellli and habrochaites can pollinate lycopersicum, lycopersicumm cannot pollinate them.
Have a search on this forum and you should see some stuff I have posted on it. Basically if you buy good LED lights and grow in Kratky hydroponics in small containers, you can speed breed at home with relative ease.
I personally am not selecting indoors. Like I mentioned above, environmental selection is really only relevant at F2 or hybrid swarm stage. The fastest way to get to that stage is speed breeding. So this to me is the logically most efficient way to start with the modern landrace method this forum is focused on, even though I seem to be the only one doing it. The way I see it, if you make a hybrid swarm in the ânaturalâ way outside with natural pollination, which is the standard way for this modern landrace method, the 2 drawbacks are:
It will take much longer
There will generally be far less genetic variation/richness than if you systematically hand-pollinate.
These two factors combined could mean turning not just 3 years into 1, but actually many more years than that. You might even wait for decades and still not get the crosses naturally that you could make by hand in controlled conditions, due to low chances, the rare crossed seeds not being saved, or the plants never surviving or never flowering at the right time in your climate.
Sorry your quote was huge, I have no idea what you are referring to.
I donâ think thatâs how the rest of the world uses that term.
Duckweed could be a really good candidate for a species to selectively breed and domesticate. Azolla as well. I suspect ferns might be unusually suitable for doing transgenesis on since they produce sperm that swim in the water, which are known to uptake foreign DNA under the right conditions. There are a lot of edible ferns with breeding potential, but the breeding would need basic tissue culture techniques.
Humans already use microbes to detox their food. Tempeh is a good example since soybeans are still somewhat toxic when cooked. Taro is turned into poi in the pacific islands by fermenting it, which removes residual oxalate. But polynesians also have strains of gut microbes that break down oxalate too, which means they can better tolerate their many leaf vegetables that are often high in oxalate.
Breeding for lower toxin levels or higher vitamins is doable with fancy chemical assays, or you could train your own senses to measure levels in many cases (most toxins taste bad). Every one of us has a sophisticated spectrometer in our head (several actually- eyes, tongue and nose). The main trick is figuring out how much toxin tasting you can safely do. A hybrid approach where you train your senses on a range of samples with known toxin concentrations could also be useful to get you started.
As for your original sin/garden of eden question. I have seen analyses that the story is a remnant from the transition between foraging and farming (likewise with the cain and abel story). I see âknowledge of good or evilâ as the key cognitive trait to allow humans to differentiate between variations in the plants and animals around them, rather than just allowing natural selection to do all the heavy lifting. So I see it as humans deciding to become âlike godsâ, and being a god is damn hard work. Hopefully practice makes perfect, though it might take a few million years to really figure out what we are doing.
Isnât taro just fine when cooked? Itâs been eaten in Asia probably longer than any other domesticated crop, it was perhaps the most important crop in Asia in the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural society. (Iâm also growing it here, though unfortunately the ploidy of the varieties most suited to the North means they canât be crossed, so far as I understand. So, without some unusual means, landracing that is out).
By the way I also make nattĹ, my favourite way of processing soybeans. Thatâs a bacterial process.
Different taro strains vary in oxalate content. Just boiling usually leaves residual oxalate (and people vary in their sensitivity- i am unusually sensitive). Pressure cooking works wonders, but not an option in the stone age. I think it is a great example of the many different ways a plant and their human symbiont can meet in the middle to form a working relationship.
I was keen to gather taro diversity and do breeding but even in the subtropics the flowering is too unreliable (and the production wasnt great either with our cold/dry winters).
Thank you for Explaining Unilateral incompatibility. SO just as a safe bet when Landrace Breeding, also try to go both ways just in case one way messes up, the other might work? Kind of how Lofthouse showed that Cushaw Squash and Butternut Squash types can cross but it works better with Cushaw as mother & Butternut as Pollen Donar. This would be an example right? Reguardless it can be overcome by taking the hybrid and Crossing it with the parents similar to how Honeynut Squash was made?
Hydropnoics can speed up days to maturity!? Thatâs insane dude! Please if you can Post Links to where you explained how it was done step by step. I actually wanna try it!
From what I understand, Basically you are Speed Breeding a Diverse Seed base to start Landracing with? Like making your own GTS Landrace mix (Or Bulking up Seeds) to start Landracing outside?
Or Making UI/Barely Compatible crosses so you can get them out the way?
I was refering to Speed Breeding, What plants do you do it with? Which Plants does Speed Breeding work with? Which ones it doesnât with? Could Pines be Speed Bred? (They take 2 Years for each Cone/Fruit to Ripen, Cuz Breeding a Pinenut Landrace would be Awesome!)
Would it work with Apples, Persimmons, Squash, Beefsteak Tomatoes, or only small things like Chickweed, Mustards & Basils Seeds (Since they donât take much Energy to make Seeds)? Iâm just thinking how would you speed breed those Huge Ass Maxima Squash Fruits? Probably would break the small Spot just by Weight alone.
What? Do you mean when Cooked Poorly (Via not enough Time or heat)? Or just Cooked in general where itâs still toxic no mater how you cook it? Does it absolutely require Microbes to be made safe? Cuz I cooked Soy beans like regular beans before with no Problems.
I Bring this up because of what PFAF which said âThe sprouted seed is eaten raw or added to cooked dishesâ. How would a Sprouted seed be edible raw if cooking is required?
Thatâs Interesting AF, Iâve never ate Spinach or Lambsquater in large Quantities raw because of the Oxaltes (Hence Why I cook them, not to mention taste improves). Itâs Interesting to know we humans can develop gut bacteria to Process Oxalates better. Hmm⌠could this be why some people have digestive issues with certain foods or why some people are allergic?
Also brings another question, Eating more Plant Based Foods (Which Contain Lots of Dietary Fiber) feeds the Gut Bacteria meaning by eating more healthier, you could grow a powerhouse of Gut Bacteria to help you digest even more foods?
Or Fecal transplant from polynesians to gain their microbes?
I think this is where the Landrace Comunity Could Greatly Benefit with Nutritionist! Imagine if we Cross Pollinated with Micheal Greger or the https://nutritionfacts.org/ forums about this. Seems like the Nutritionist are Lacking in Landrace Gardening Info and could greatly benefit from our collaborative efforts.
Iâve also heard Foragers talking about how Wild Edibles typically have higher nutrients than domesticated crops, making me think why the discrepancy? If we can just breed more Nutritious Crops, we can easily surpass the wild edibles in Nutrition canât we?
I think this is where Artificial Intelligence can speed things up. Still though, AI will never surpass God.
Exactly, We are the only species who can truly have dominion/rule over Plants/Animals since we are also the only species who can truly domesticate/Subdue Plants & Animals. Maybe this is what being made in the Image of God means? Our role is to be the Landrace Gardeners of this world? Or is simply because we also ate the âForbidden Fruitâ Thus opened Pandoraâs Box of Evil/Good Knowledge. Itâs just weird how no other species can do what we do, (No Ants Farming Aphids doesnât really count) makes you think?
Wait Ploidy being a Hindrance to Landracing? How tho? Can you explain it? Is this why people donât Landrace Strawberries? Cuz they have too Many Chromosomes or something? I always thought the more Chromosomes, the easier a plant to cross (Usually)?
Their lousy crap is weak-ass. And all those superweeds that are round up resistant now have sprung up⌠Thank you microbes for that migrationâŚ
All that fiddling is not the way. Profit driven short term window dressing.
Mechanisation compacts soils.
Monocultures create plagues and soil erosion.
Weâll have to work together with nature or nature will cut us down i believe.
And for sharing them with us. Youâre very fun and fascinating to converse with!