I have about three or four distinct strains of bee balm (Monarda fistulosa) in my garden a native plant. I think one of the bigger patches has had some turnover in the population this winter / spring. I would like to grow more of it because it is beloved by native bees and pollinators, but it would be nice if possible, to breed a more aggressive strain of it.
I found five plants of what I presume to be the strain that evolved on the property on the far side of the hill yesterday, I think I remember there once being only one over there. That could mean it is slowly increasing unless I simply hit it just right. As a native plant it has an enormous geographic range. I am curious about its potential.
I too am curious about it’s potential. I just wonder why Monarda smells like Car tires? At least my local Purple Monarda does. I’ve heard it’s good in teas but It feels like it may be too strong, have you tried it’s edibility uses? Seems like they’re barely edible.
I love it! Turing Monarda into an Invasive species is a goal to go for! Would make a nice Chop & Drop plant for sure.
Have you brought in other species of Monarda? Hybrid vigor & grafting could be excellent ways to accelerate your goal. I can see a Red Monarda grafted onto a purple Monarda bush causing interspecies crosses by being so close to each other.
It looks like the mount cuba center has trialed quite a lot of varieties of Monarda- they say forty! Which suggests that it would be possible to collect that many strains.
The ~ four types in my garden which are different include the following:
Far side of the hill Monarda fistulosa- quite possibly native and may have always grown there. I first noticed a single plant years ago but this year there are five large plants with one blooming later than the others. Surprisingly tall but not huge. There is potentially an alternative origin story to the patch- I did spread more native plant seeds years ago.
Monarda fistulosa from West Side of Flathead Lake. A work colleague invited me to visit their property around 2003 and I found some aerial seed bank bee balm seed still there- with permission took it home and propagated it. Patch is now 20 years old and I notice this year has increased into more plants. Probably my shortest strain currently.
Monarda mix possibly this one: Panorama Mix - Monarda Seed | Johnny's Selected Seeds I was working at a local organic greenhouse project in 2017 and brought home some extras. Patch kind of reset itself this year looks like it had some mortality over the winter but is still doing ok.
Lake county pollinator mix Monarda- came in a pollinator mix. Tallest and latest of the four.
2, 3, and 4 are growing in close proximity to each other in a 2017 planting. 2 also has its original planting about 150 feet away. 1 is far away from the others.
Notably all three areas with Monarda have shown some signs of changing and increasing. So, it’s possible that Monarda is already an increaser- but a slow increaser considering that I purchased the property in 2003 and probably planted patch number 2 in 2004.
It’s possible that the #3 Monarda mix or the #4 pollinator patch strain could already be or contain interspecies hybrids. Lots of the strains available are marketed as hybrids and then the question just becomes as to what they are hybrids of?
Most wild populations I’ve encountered seem fairly uniform within population, but I noticed some color variation in a population I encountered some years ago in North Dakota. Wild populations definitely vary in height considerably from population to population.
It does seem like that if I plant it, it grows, so one possible way to help it increase is simply to plant more. Another might be to widely spread the seed from the existing patches. I would like to propagate from the 2017 planting that has had the potential to cross between three sources.
If you could breed a strain that is resistant to powdery mildew, you would feel an immense wave of gratitude washing over you from all parts of the country.
I find Monarda to be like Agastache in that I am open to any and every species in my garden. I currently have small ‘populations’ of fistulosa, didyma and citriodora throughout my main fenced garden. Didyma by far is the most prolific and abundant. Citriodora is incredible as a main constituent of Mead/Methyglyn. All Monardas make for good herbal teas as one would suspect in a good number of mint family plants.
All the species of Monarda are so similar, it makes me wanna consider each species as a variety. The most obvious difference between species is White, Purple, Red Flower Color with everything in between. Hybrids are most likely interspecies as that would be most noticeable in hybrids. Why else would they bother labeling an intraspecies hybrid? Who would be able to tell the difference? Seriously who?
Nice! Yea that’s pretty much the natural variation within a species, height & growth form, along with petal length & other small things like that.
Yea, plants don’t spread super far from roots, sowing different seeds in each different spot would be the way to go.
Makes you wonder what other genera are in the same subtribe of monarda? They probably share edibility characteristics & could be worth investigating Intergeneric Crosses with monarda. Specifically how edible is monarda? They smell like Car Tires to me, I don’t think Car Tires tea sounds fun to drink tho. Which part Do you use? leaves, young shoots, Flowers, seeds?
Car tires? That’s funny. I almost wonder if Monarda has that same quality to it as cilantro does to cilantrophobes who feel it tastes like soap. Or, some people find that certain excessive levels of geosmin in beets makes them taste like dirt. So interesting.
I personally just find they smell ‘Earthen’ and, within that, there are subtle nuances in aromatics. So, as to tea, yeah essentially all aerial parts. But, really, you are wanting to prioritize leaves and whole flower. I simply cut the aerial parts in whole and suspend them upside down on a hanging line and dry them in the dark. They retain almost full coloration if they avoid sunlight.
My daughter absolutely loves drinking the tea. But, I will say, car tire tea definitely doesn’t sound all that appealing. It sounds kind of desperate
It very much could, it also could be that my particular strain smells like car tires (Hard to say which is which without more people smelling it, my brother says it smelled like car ties too, maybe genetic?). Cilantro does taste like soap to me (the most disguting herb I know) but the SEEDS Taste SOOO GOOD! Why does one edible part taste so bad while the other taste so good? I can see beets tasting like dirt, they are among my favorite root veggies for sure!
But do you eat the leaves of monarda? They seem WAYYYY to Strong for even a Salad Topping unlike mild basil.
Wait so for teas you only use them dry? Not Fresh? Flower vs Leaf tea make a difference?
Your strain must not smell like Car Tires. Perhaps it’s just the purple flower species that do. How does the red species taste? or the White species?
That sounds like a common breeding goal. Mildew resistance, and disease resistance in general has a lot of potential for this species and given its huge natural range it might be out there! We just need to collect that diversity and grow it out in our gardens! Then share it with each other!
For botanists and horticulturists a variety means very different things. Monarda is one place where that comes to play and many horticultural varieties of Monarda do seem to be interspecific hybrids!
What if you’re both? Eventually if you corss all the Monarda species, will you end up with 1 species & lots of subspecies? Like how Cucurbita pepo & Vigna unguiculata have multiple subspecies? Or how the Amaranthus hybridus complex can be just 1 species? This really feels like a complex similar to Solanum nigrum situation all over again.
Nice, more diversity for the win. but Yea how else would you make cool hybrids if it weren’t for interspecific hybrids? Speaking of which why are there so many species of Black Nightshade?
I suppose I am both a professional botanist and an amateur horticulturist. In that case of working in both worlds I think you just have to put on a different hat in the two situations. You might choose a horticultural Monarda variety and name it for horticulture, but also realize that botanically that variety is an interspecies hybrid between Monarda fistulosa and Monarda didyma. Though horticultural varieties are really just selections and if you made a lot of Monarda selections you could have some from Monarda fistulosa, some from Monarda didyma, and some from the interspecies hybrids.
Botanically you’ll always have just three things with the Monarda didyma and Monarda fistulosa species pair, the two species and the hybrid. If the hybrid is stable it may get its own name- or in this case keep it as Monarda media. However, these things if all the same ploidy level tend to back cross to one parent or the other until they are just what we would call an introgression. Occasionally a new species may arise from a stable interspecies hybrid.
It’s not at all clear so far from the articles I’ve seen that folks have yet observed all of the Monarda species hybridizing. It may just be Monarda fistulosa and Monarda didyma that occasionally hybridize. Actually, the article I linked to on hybridization also mentions that Monarda clinopodia may also hybridize with Monarda didyma. USDA Plants Database If you go to the subordinate taxa tab on USDA plants it looks like there are 18 Monardas including some of hybrid origin botanically. For Monarda fistulosa in USDA plants there are 5 botanical varieties (not to be confused with horticultural varieties which are selections). Here in MT the wild stuff is Monarda fistulosa L. ssp. fistulosa var. menthifolia (Graham) Fernald botanically under the current USDA plants classification.
The amaranth hybridus is probably a bit of a trash taxon sort of like Malus hybridus for crabapples. It gives us somewhere to put something we can’t really distinguish without DNA analysis. With DNA analysis we might be more specific and name the parent species of the cross.
We might actually be able to make cool Monarda hybrids without going interspecific given its huge geographic range and within species variation. For example: I might find a really tall Monarda fistulosa from a restoration seed company in the mid west and cross it with a really short Monarda fistulosa from North Central MT and get a really vigorous F1. For my garden I am not sure if I want much genetic influence from other Monarda species- its likely to be maladapted. Though some may be useful. Its probably a bit of a balancing act. So I probably want to end up with plants that are mostly Monarda fistulosa L. ssp. fistulosa var. menthifolia (Graham) Fernald with any helpful introgressions from other fistulosa varieties and the other crossable Monarda species. That might allow for say more vigor or maybe some new resistance to powdery mildew, but balance against outright maladaptation. The current bee balm does seem to be increasing- the trick is to keep and improve on that. Some resulting strains from a breeding program might prove to be decreasers- (Hybrid depression if I am thinking of the right word) and those would hopefully naturally disappear over time.
I can’t speak to black nightshade too much, and that drifts the conversation off topic, but it may be speciation due to long geographic isolation over geologic time scales.
Interesting, I wonder how many ancient ghost introgression have happend with an extinct species that continues it’s genes in living species? I was thinking Introgression is the way to make interspecies Squash hybrids! Introgressions are the genetic bridges, but it seems like introgressions aren’t necessary for monarda’s right? Every species of Monarda easily Cross-able with each other?
Ah so that’s why media is used in other plant scientific names? Same situation with hybridus right? Perhaps Monarda hybridus?
Wait so there exist Horticultural varieties selections inside one species? I thought there wasn’t enough diversity to justify a horticultural variety with only 1 species. Very interesting. I’m trying to make Horticultural & botanical varieties consistent so they could be both understood.
Hmm I guess diversity is in Height for 1 species but not in flower color (As that would only be in another species) right?
I see, since you’ve already got some pretty well performers.
So geographic isolation causes limited natural selection thus concentration of a trait? Wait isn’t this just breeding? Don’t we do the exact thing with landrace gardening, by selecting for what we like? Won’t that eventually make a new species?
However, these things if all the same ploidy level tend to back cross to one parent or the other until they are just what we would call an introgression. Occasionally a new species may arise from a stable interspecies hybrid.
Interesting, I wonder how many ancient ghost introgression have happend with an extinct species that continues it’s genes in living species? I was thinking Introgression is the way to make interspecies Squash hybrids! Introgressions are the genetic bridges, but it seems like introgressions aren’t necessary for monarda’s right? Every species of Monarda easily Cross-able with each other?
Probably constant past introgressions. Introgressions are not necessarily the cause of retained crossability they can also be thought of as a consequence. My current research does not yet suggest that all Monardas are intercrossable.
William Clark Schlegel:
If the hybrid is stable it may get its own name- or in this case keep it as Monarda media.
Ah so that’s why media is used in other plant scientific names? Same situation with hybridus right? Perhaps Monarda hybridus?
I don’t know and my copy of the book Botanical Latin has been packed away for years.
William Clark Schlegel:
We might actually be able to make cool Monarda hybrids without going interspecific given its huge geographic range and within species variation. For example: I might find a really tall Monarda fistulosa from a restoration seed company in the mid west and cross it with a really short Monarda fistulosa from North Central MT and get a really vigorous F1.
Wait so there exist Horticultural varieties selections inside one species? I thought there wasn’t enough diversity to justify a horticultural variety with only 1 species. Very interesting. I’m trying to make Horticultural & botanical varieties consistent so they could be both understood.
Hmm I guess diversity is in Height for 1 species but not in flower color (As that would only be in another species) right?
Inside, outside, upside down. Nope diversity in height and flower color is found both within and between species. Tremendous variation is possible here.
William Clark Schlegel:
For my garden I am not sure if I want much genetic influence from other Monarda species- its likely to be maladapted. Though some may be useful. Its probably a bit of a balancing act.
I see, since you’ve already got some pretty well performers.
William Clark Schlegel:
I can’t speak to black nightshade too much, and that drifts the conversation off topic, but it may be speciation due to long geographic isolation over geologic time scales.
So geographic isolation causes limited natural selection thus concentration of a trait? Wait isn’t this just breeding? Don’t we do the exact thing with landrace gardening, by selecting for what we like? Won’t that eventually make a new species?
No natural selection acts on every population just when you separate two populations it acts a little differently on each. The separation doesn’t cause the selection it just separates it which leads to divergence.
Yep natural selection is just selection that occurs because of variation in the natural world.
Any plant breeding requires selection after new variation is generated.
If we continue plant breeding long enough in isolation thereotically but the time spans necessary would be potentially geologic in scale.
Interesting, Perhaps not readiliy intercrossable? There aren’t any subgenera in monarda to prevent crossing like there is in Solanum or Amaranthus right? Also mentor pollination can help distant crosses happen. Sometimes recently hybridized offspring hybridize more readily.
Wow! Wait if flower color is found within & between species, how do you ID each species then? Sounds like a super hard thing to sort through especially when they can easily fluctuate an ID trait.
Solanum lycopersicum ,Cucumis melo, Solanum muricantum, Cucumis sativus, Benincasa hispida, Zea mays took that long too? How about Cucumis anguria (Which doesn’t have any wild progenitors, It’s been suspected to be of domesticated origin)? Why don’t these species have an X infront of the scientifc name like Fragaria × ananassa does? Surely they’ve had similar domestication efforts too. What makes strawberry so uniquely different? or is it just a taxonomy issue only?
So many species only have domesticated origin, where the wild progenitors have been forgotten, gone extinct or Introgressed with something else. Plus why does the scientific name Malus domestica exist? Does it imply this species was generated only thru domestication?
Probably constant past introgressions. Introgressions are not necessarily the cause of retained crossability they can also be thought of as a consequence. My current research does not yet suggest that all Monardas are intercrossable.
Interesting, Perhaps not readiliy intercrossable? There aren’t any subgenera in monarda to prevent crossing like there is in Solanum or Amaranthus right? Also mentor pollination can help distant crosses happen. Sometimes recently hybridized offspring hybridize more readily.
I don’t know yet.
William Clark Schlegel:
Inside, outside, upside down. Nope diversity in height and flower color is found both within and between species. Tremendous variation is possible here.
Wow! Wait if flower color is found within & between species, how do you ID each species then? Sounds like a super hard thing to sort through especially when they can easily fluctuate an ID trait.
Key characters are chosen for stability. Variable colors are found within and between but not the same colors.
William Clark Schlegel:
If we continue plant breeding long enough in isolation thereotically but the time spans necessary would be potentially geologic in scale.
Solanum lycopersicum ,Cucumis melo, Solanum muricantum, Cucumis sativus, Benincasa hispida, Zea mays took that long too?
Time scale is quite variable with different groups. With tomatoes some of the species evolved relatively recently. Still took a long time though!
How about Cucumis anguria (Which doesn’t have any wild progenitors, It’s been suspected to be of domesticated origin)?
No idea.
Why don’t these species have an X infront of the scientifc name like Fragaria × ananassa does? Surely they’ve had similar domestication efforts too. What makes strawberry so uniquely different?
Strawberry we know exactly what happened. We crossed European Fragaria vesca with North American Fragaria virginiania. Then for the modern hybrid we crossed in Fragaria chiloensis as well. All relatively recently. That is why it gets the X.
or is it just a taxonomy issue only?
So many species only have domesticated origin, where the wild progenitors have been forgotten, gone extinct or Introgressed with something else. Plus why does the scientific name Malus domestica exist? Does it imply this species was generated only thru domestication?
Actually when I was first interested in apples I grabbed up some books. One used Malus pumila instead of both Malus sieversii and Malus domestica. Malus pumila is the oldest correctly published name and it turns out that type of large apple evolved naturally in Kazakhstan with humans and Ursus arctos bears. Though modern apples may have picked up some nice flavors through additional hybridisation with the European crabapple as they spread west along the silk road.
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William Clark Schlegel: