Baby steps at a time, hybridized offspring on both sides of the Phylogenic Tree are more likely to cross. Doing so would be EPIC! Idk how grafting in Yuccas would work, Monocot grafting is extremely difficult to near impossible (Due to very different Vascular/Water Veins Structure).
But imagine if there was a way to easily Graft Monocots? What are other methods to faciliate Horizontal Gene Flow among Monocots? I’ve heard at that story where Red Corn made the grass around it red too.
I would be surprised if any Yucca were not able to be crossed. They seem to hybridize easily where wild populations overlap which is part of why there is so much confusion when it comes to names and research.
ah that makes a LOT of sense, kind of like the whole genus could be a Species Complex?
Is it similar to the Opuntia Situation?
On the phylogenic trees they at least seem to divide by 2-3 Subgenera (Depending on how you count them), is there confirmed crosses between species from different subgenera?
There’s tons of cultivated hybrids and I know there are many confirmed hybrids in the wild but there’s also debate about if they are even species or sub-species.
Yes, I think Opuntia is a pretty similar situation.
I just barley scratched the surface but it really does appear lots of species are subspecies of each other. Will look into it further when I do a Yucca Research deep dive, currently researching Brassica & how to select for safe seed oil.
I keep finding new plant genera in which all the different species readily hybridize with each other. It makes me think that maybe what we call “species” in wild populations is no more genetic difference than what we would call “varieties” in domesticated crops. I mean, if Brassica oleracea was a fully wild plant, would people consider kohlrabi and cauliflower to be different species in the same genus?
I’m thinking that’s the kind of thing I keep seeing with different wild species in the same genus. It seems like a double standard, or at least an inconsistency in what the word “species” means.
But then again, maybe inconsistency is simply what should be expected, because the line at which two populations are considered to be different species is much more arbitrary than people tend to assume.
Mainly because nature doesn’t care about the neat, tidy boxes we humans like to classify things into . . . 
Yes Exactly! I’ve started to notice that not all “species” capture an equal weight of genetic diversity. Some species are separated by Spliting Hair differences like those of the Amaranthus hybridus Complex & Solanum nigrum Complex & Especially Cardamine hirsuta vs Cardamine flexulosa & Rubus allegheniensis vs Rubus pensilvanicus (Litterally in the Blackberry example the only difference are micro-glands that are themselves variable cuz both species hybridize constantly 
). Other species like Brassica oleracea, Cucumis melo, Cucurbita maxima, Cucurbita pepo, Vigna unguiculata are all technically counted as each a single specis.
Absolutely, if we were being consistent these could’ve been considered seperate species.
In fact I was researching Brassica oleracea & learned it’s actually a species complex (With many Species inside B. oleracea, these can be considered subspecies). All these subspecies still have the Identifiable traits of B. oleracea (Flowers open below the buds, & Leaves don’t clasp stem at all).
But what’s crazy is Brassica rapa also has many diverse cultivars like B. oleracea. Turnip, Bokchoy, Field Mustard, Chinese Cabbage, Mustard Spinach, Mizuna, Tatsoi, Rapini are all Brassica rapa. Here’s the Phylogenic tree for B. oleracea & B. rapa.
I also found an updated improved Brassica Trianlge. So it’s not just Raphanus but Sinapis, Eruca, Cakile + many more genera have potential to cross with Brassica.
And if we are being consistent, Brassica nigra was updated to Mutarda nigra, so it can be in the same genus as it’s phylogeniclally sister spcies Mutarda arvensis (Used to go by Sinapis arvensis or Brassica kaber). Unlike B. oleracea & B. rapa, Brassica nigra is very far removed based on phylogenic Distance & Uniqueness in genetics, it should’ve belong to a different genera despite being able to Cross with Brassica easily. This helps expalin why Brassica nigra is so different compared to Brassica rapa & Brassica oleracea.
Techically speaking if B. nigra is a Mutarda species, that would make Brassica juncea an Intergeneric Hybrid (Mutarda nigra x Brassica rapa).
Some of the Brassica oleracea subspecies provided the White Flower Petals Trait, some of the subspecies are classified as in-dangered. See now that explains the emphasis/agenda keeping them separate species,? If Brassica hilarionis isn’t classified as a subspecies of B. oleracea but as it’s own separate species, then all the sudden more funding from government can be justifed in order to protect the “Endangered” Species. I still see no reason why you can’t have an endangered subspecies, much like some Tomato Heirlooms go extinct without seed savers, they should Also be considered extinct or endangered.
As Landrace Plant Breeders we make all kinds of “Varieites” go extinct by selecting out all the bad traits we don’t like. If a Variety or species isn’t valued enough to have it’s seed saved, it goes extinct (Nature does the same, it’s all selection after all, Natural or Human). You know, I bet lots of these “Endangered” species wouldn’t be “Endangered” no more if seeds were easily /liberally shared among gardeners (Gardeners growing endangered species are a Back Up form of Conservation). So many extinct heirloom varieties were brought back from “Extinction” because of a Heirloom seed saver. There’s no reason the same can’t happen with Endangered species.
A perfect example is Sea-side Amaranth (Amaranthus pumilus), it’s loosing natural habitat due to disturbance of its beach habitat through development, construction of seawalls, off-road vehicle activity, and other forces. As a way to counter-act Human habitat destruction, Gardeners could grow them & maintain their own populations.
Anyways getting back to Brassica, What’s even more crazy is the Brassicaea Tribe is split into 2 linages, the B. rapa Linage & the B. nigra Linage. This study tried to organize the tribe into Subtribes.
In the wild plants world, species basically become equivalent to Varieties or Cultivars. So much so I started treating them as such in my Notes (Especially those that are Phylogenically Sister Species or nearly indistinguishable by hair-spliting difference).
Indeed! The concept of species are a man made tool designed as our attempt at trying to classify & organize life. Weeds are also another Man-Made Concept. Both “Weeds” & “Species” are useful concepts to help us understand what plant is what. So many very different plants share the same common names, I think this was why the Concept of species was invented. Good luck trying to do scientic studies without scientifc names, no one would understand exactly what plant a study was about. Of course the concept is irrelevant to Nature, every plant makes seeds after it’s own kind (And Nature can stretch “Kinds” however needed to adapt to any environment).
Great video btw, I’ve already seen it. What breaks the species concept further is Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination. Often species are kept separate if their offspring are sterile (As stated in the video) but Mentor Pollination can help solve a lot of these issues (Same with other methods to facilitate Horizontal Gene Flow). It really reshapes the way I view species.
Theoretically since all Cucurbita species can cross with Mentor Polination, should they all be considered 1 species? But then wasn’t the whole point of species “Specific epithet”, it’s the 2nd part of a scientific name aka specifically the species part?
Taxonomist constantly argue & dispute just how many species there actually are, some taxonomist are “Splitters” while others are “Lumpers”. I’m mostly a Lumper cuz there’s just too many species to remember & love my species with more variations. A good example is Kalina Viburnum opulus & Viburnum trilobum, Forager Sameul Thayer consideres them seperate species because V. trilobum taste like Cranberry vs V. opulus is ridiculously nasty bitter. In some cases lumping makes sense, in other cases spiting makes sense. But… both Cucurbita pepo Cucumis melo have nasty forms too.
Don’t forget that Brassica napus has remarkable diversity, too. That species has both rutabaga and canola, as well as many varieties that are called “something kale,” such as Russian Hunger Gap kale. (Speaking of which, I sowed canola and turnip seeds for an edible cover crop last year, and I think it was the canola plants that had the leaves with the remarkably tasty sweet aftertaste. I definitely let them go to seed, and I’m hoping they’ve resown themselves.)
Brassica oleracea, meanwhile, is crazy diverse. It even has walking stick kale and tree collards, which are huge perennials that are way less cold hardy than most Brassica oleraceas (zone 8, sometimes even zone 9).
Ah, I see what you mean about funding. That may explain why it seems to be so common for genera of wild plants (and probably animals) to be divided into a lot of separate species, even when they can cross freely. Maintaining biodiversity is very important, and I’m not gonna argue against a practice that helps.
Still. As a person who enjoys consistency, especially when it aids clarity in communication, the arbitrary nature of some species divisions bothers me.
I’ve come to believe the word “weed” is pretty consistent in meaning: “a plant growing in a place where I don’t want it.” 
The reverse is a volunteer: “a plant I didn’t choose to put in that place, but I welcome its presence.” Subjective terms are highly useful to describe how something intersects with your personal desires – they just aren’t universal.
I think I’m mostly a lumper, too. I tend to favor the biological species concept of, “If they can produce viable offspring that can also produce viable offspring, they’re the same species.” I find it to be the most actionable meaning of the term “species.”
With the caveat that there’s pretty often a grey area of “crosses which can sometimes work but aren’t very common or easy” between different species.
Indeed, but it’s also Hybrid between Brassica rapa x Brassica oleracea & with some cultivars being closer to rapa or oleracea genetically. I even found 2 Phylogenic Trees for Brassica napus. This makes me think, can we have B. rapa style Brussles Srpouts?
AWESOME!!! So perhaps the selection for good tasting oil also strongly correlates to good tasting greens as well! I hope you’ll have enough canola to share, how did you get the seeds?
Brassica oleracea is really crazy diverse, no kidding! I still don’t fully understand how Perennial Kale even works, how does it not die after flower like all the annual cultivars of Brassica oleracea? And what happens if you cross perennial kale with an annual Brassica? Doe it loose the Perennial Trait?
I absolutely agree bio-diversity is important but I’m not sure how much these “Endangered species” restrictions actually help.
If endangered = Gardeners are banned from growing them, that only does more harm for the species. Endangered species desperately need an Army of Johnny Apple Seed type of people spreading them before the entire species goes extinct. GTS is doing important work of preserving Bio-diversity in their mixes & with the Broader GTS Community. I think there’s room for both kinds of conserving Bio-Diveristy, in fact many species have DNA from extinct species when long ago an ancient intro-gression even took place. Example being Cucurbita texana, it’s pretty much introgressed throughly into Cucurbita pepo at this point.
I think you’re both right. There is a need for protecting endangered species (as well as endangered ecotypes). At the same time, creating a situation where plants are so rare AND totally unavailable commercially leads to a relatively high demand & low supply if there is any public interest at all in the plant. This has often lead to illegal plant poaching.
I think a part of protecting species should include programs of sustainably propagating and producing plants & seed and selling these to comercial growers who then continue to grow out even more to be sold to the public.
The profits from selling to the comercial growers could then be used to help fund the costs protection program.
ooh! I like that, now that’s the kind of smart thinking that makes both sides happy! I would love to collaborate with these folks, especially if we could set up a system like this.
I hope conservationist are open to this idea. I vaguely recall some launched campaigns of species at risk of going endagered to be sold in seed packets, with words of motivations to gardeners like “Save the species”. Kind of like the Mikeweed Seeds Campaign (The most popular & well known example I know).
I got the canola seeds from a cover crop mix somebody put into the Serendipity Seed Swap box in 2023! So I bet it’s a very common type of canola that is easy to find. 
Yep, perennial kale doesn’t die after flowering. It flowers, it makes seeds, and the leaves stay on the plant happily photosynthesizing before, during, and after that period. It’s wonderful. 
Perennial kale crossed with an annual brassica can lose the perenniality, yes. Or not. It depends on what happens in the genes. Personally, I plan to let all my brassicas cross freely and save seeds from the best, with my priorities being 1) deliciousness, 2) how big and large and healthy they get, and 3) pereniality. I’d definitely love for them to all be perennial, and that’s my dream, but I can live with winter annuals that I resow every year.
A few months ago, the wind ripped some branches off my perennial kale (which grew out of a seed from the 2023 Going to Seed Kale+ mix), so I ate the leaves from those branches, which were delicious. Then I dug those branches into the ground in between a bunch of my apple trees, in the hopes that I could get them to root and produce clones. If I’m lucky, maybe they will grow into new plants that will give me more yummy broccoli this year. 
My brussels sprouts x kohlrabi plants are doing well. There are seven of them, two small and five large, and they’re on their second winter now. They didn’t flower last year, so I expect them to flower this spring. I am delighted that they have huge swollen stems and lots of underarm buds. That was exactly what I was hoping for – the best traits of both.
Gardeners aren’t banned from growing endangered species. People are banned from harvesting them from the wild. Often it’s allowed to gather seeds from the endangered plants, you just can’t kill them. (It depends on the plants and the local laws.) It’s almost always legal to grow them yourself, as long as you got the seeds in a way that is legal by the local laws.
Here in Utah, for instance, it’s against the law to harvest sego lilies from the wild because they’re endangered. But it’s perfectly legal, and in fact a terrific idea, to buy seeds and grow them. As long as they’re plants on your own land that you planted on purpose from seeds, you can eat them.
Of course, sego lilies are supposed to be extremely difficult to grow in gardens because they want very dry soil with very little organic material in it . . . but I figure that just means I should put them in pots full of sand. 
I believe there are a lot of programs like you described, @JinTX. I frequently see people saying things like, “This plant is endangered and protected, so don’t harvest it from the wild. If you want to try it, you can buy seeds from such-and-such place and grow them.” I would love to see it be much easier to find those seeds to buy, but a lot of times, they are out there.
I completely agree that gardeners growing endangered species is a great way to protect them, especially if we can landrace them to maintain genetic diversity for future adaptation purposes. If they wind up thriving and escaping from our gardens and reestablishing themselves in the wild, that would be a very good thing!
It doesn’t look like sego lily has endangered status. It is your state flower which often does have those local requirement of not harvesting unless planted by seed. That’s the same way they treat bluebonnets in Texas.
The way the government currently treats endangered species is to restrict access. It does vary state to state, especially relating to private land.
“It is prohibited to remove and reduce to possession or maliciously damage or destroy endangered plants on Federal lands. For private lands, it is illegal to collect, damage, or destroy endangered plants in violation of a state law including state criminal trespass law. Very few states prohibit landowners from collecting or destroying endangered plants on their own private property, so endangered plants on private property have minimal protection.”
https://www.fs.usda.gov/wildflowers/Rare_Plants/conservation/lawsandregulations.shtml
I hope so, I have yet been able to find them. I hope you have enough to share.
That’s Awesome! It truly is Perennial Kale, it’s weird seeing such an Evolution adaption happen. All the wild Brassica spp. are annuals. Yet Perennial Kale became perennial how exactly? Was it a mutation or did the Kale wanted to make the gardener happy & became perennial?
Even if you cross annual & perennial kale, you can always reselect for the perennial trait. Really makes me think who was the first to notice such a trait?
I too also want to cross all my Brassica veggies, even the interspecies veggies to create the most inzane bad-shit crazy hybrid swarm (Cabbage x Bokchoy x Kale x Brussle Sprout x Rutabaga x Mizuna x Cauliflower x Mustard Spinach x Turnip x Broccoli x Ethiopian Kale x Kohlrabi) and just see what shows up.
I really hope to get the Bubble Lacinato Kale Texture transferred into Brussles sprout. I know that’s how Savoy Cabbage was made (Lacinato Kale x Cabbage, reselected for Cabbage Shape). Maybe I can even create Purple Lacinato Kale or Savoy Brussle Sprouts (Still working on the name ).
Oh I just gotta see what that would look like, I really hope you took some pictures. Best of both traits, swollen stems & underarm buds!? 
Wait that means the “Brussle Sprout” stem becomes tender like Kolhrabi? Does it taste sweeter in Winter?
Awesome! That’s what I was hoping for but in some places, you can’t even touch the plants 
. I guess the solution here is to find another place or hope someone sells the seeds somewhere.
I hope to find those companies. A lot of the endangered species are so rare & hard to get seeds for 
, for obvious endangered reasons making them rare.
Here’s a cheap place to buy canola cover crop seeds!
One ounce will cost you $4.58 and provide you with 13,400 seeds.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if that’s where they originally came from. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they were purchased at a local weed and feed store. Either way, I’m pretty sure it was a very common variety.
I don’t have any seeds saved, because I sowed them all immediately upon harvesting them. Maybe I’ll get more seeds from the plants this spring. That is certainly my hope.
Great Find, thank you! but I’m just not sure how much Erucic Acid & Glucosinolates are present in the seeds?
I don’t know if they can legally sell it as Canola seeds if the erucic acid is above 2%, I like the Non GMO aspect of it, it means I can really do breeding projects with it.
What concerned me is " If you enjoy adding a little bit of a spicy kick to your foods but find mustard or kale to be a little much, rapeseed is the perfect alternative as it has just enough spice to add flavor without becoming too overpowering.". Oh no… that means there are Glucosinolates present which I will have to breed out.
Still as for greens, these are fantastic (Even with my heat)!
I found another Canola Cultivar they sell (no info on Erucic Acid or Glucosinolate levels) : True Leaf Market | True Leaf Market Seed Company
I posted a question, we’ll see how it goes.
Hopefully!
How do we determine crosses? Can it be anything showing on the tree or does it have to be with parallel branches? Im sure its answered…but just realized the list of types on each tree…
Great Question! The best way is to do the crosses yourself!
You have to read the trees with what’s crossable in mind. Phylogenic Trees tell you which species evolved from where, often times Closely Evolved species are crossable (The closer the branch, the more likely hybrids happen). It just depends on how Strict (Strong Hybrid Barriers) or Fluid (Hybrids Flow into Each other) each branch is.
For Example Lets look at this Pepper Phylogenic Tree here (Cuz it’s beautifully color coded).
Note how each Colored section is a Clade, you can treat each group as a group of very closely related species (That likely are crossable or hybridize naturally).
Zoom into the Green & Yellow Groups. Note how it says Annum to the side of the highlighted green species? All Species Branches in that highlighted section are very closely related & thus easily crossable (So much so it’s debatable whether the entire group should be considered 1 very diverse species or a species complex). Confirmed Crosses between Capsicum annum & Capsicum chinense have been easily made, this gives up perspective on how you should view the tree.
We also know that Confirmed Crosses between Capsicum annum & Capsicum baccantum have been made but it requires a little more effort (Like Mentor Pollination) because it’s slightly a bigger jump (But in some rare cases, crosses can happen naturally). This expands what’s crossable now, putting it into perspective.
However no Hybrids (I’m aware of!) have been made between Capsicum Pubecens Group & C. annum or C. baccantum groups (Failed Embyro Resques). Thus we can say that’s when the Hybrid is too wide of a jump to be successful! I don’t like to say things are impossible, I want to encourage everyone making Crosses even near impossible hybrids (Outside the box Breeding Methods like Mentor Grafting, Mentor Pollination might be enough to work, I want to play with it).
Now hopefully you can use how Hybridizations work in Capsicum to better read the Capsicum Phylogenic Tree. Different Plant Families have different levels of how Strict their Hybridization barriers are, Each Plant Family uses it’s own set of Hybridization barriers (Take this into perspective when you read Phylogenic Trees).
In the Solanaceae Family, Intergeneric Hybrids are rare or don’t happen. Even Subgenera hybrids are rare, it’s just the Solanacea thing to do. Most Branches are quite Strict
However in the Brassicaceae Family, intergeneric hybrids are common & happen very easily. Brassica x Raphanus = Brassicoraphanus. They have very few hybridization barriers, every species or Genus in a Tribe is fair game in terms of Hybridization Potential. Take this into perspective when Reading Phylogenic Trees, most of the Branches are not strict thus very fluid.
There are some Plant Families that do inter-generic (Between Genus) hybrids easily with few hybridization barriers, here’s a list of the ones I know so far (Take Species Branch Strictness with a Grain of Salt).
I hope this helps explain it. If not I made a Video to explain it
Heard. So to focus on food vegetables and working towards genetic diversity, and taking into account available seed only in the USA…what could be the way forward? Following the phylogenetic trees and trying to get seed for parallel branches, planting, letting polinators do the crossing. Just getting seeds and planting them by each other into the same garden should make the crosses probable. So we could look at a grouping on a tree, search for the seed and facilitate ppllination, granted they grow where we sow seed. Its not very scientific but is directed. So mixing as many varieties as possible, then searching in GRIN, then wishing for international varieties…and thats about ten years of growing?
Start with all the seeds you have access with, limitations breed creativity. An important question to ask is, How much diversity do you actually need? and Can I work with the Diversity I already have?
Sometimes there’s enough diversity in a single species, sometimes you have to go outside the species or genus for more diversity (Especially with really inbred crops). Don’t be quick to dismiss a crop species (My friend struggled growing Melons until I sent him Dosakai Melons).
Practically here’s how I get seeds
GRIN may not strictly be necessary if you know the right people who have the seeds your looking for.
Yes! Altho keep in mind, species most closely related are often times barely any different, so much so it’s like small variations of the same species. I’ve seen cultivars of the same species that capture more diveristy than many different “species” a taxonomist declared are different.
Yea pretty much in most cases, altho some wider crosses will need help. But The Hybrid Offspring of Wide Crosses become bridge species themselves for even wider crosses (Especially when introgressed/back-crossed with both parents that made the cross).
It’s rocket science only if you want it to be , I just really like Nerding out, artist route is fun too! Think of each species as a new color to paint with, hybrids are like new colors!
For example planting crops next to each can be enough, but grafting crops next to each other so their flowers touch is even closer thus more crossing happens even without pollinators (I:e, Graft 2 Different Apple Scions right next to each other & it will techically wind pollinate).
It could be, but doesn’t have to take that long. That’s what callaborators are for, to speed run the effort!
Speedbreeding also exists where you can pump out multiple generations in a year thus doing what takes 10 years in 2 years.
