What kinds of apple varieties would excite you?

I’ve been buying some apple seeds from Skillcult (hee hee hee!), and I’m reflecting that my favorite trees that grow from those seeds might be different from somebody else’s. So, I’m curious: what kinds of traits would make you think, “Oh, that apple sounds awesome”?

I’d say, for me, my priorities go something like this (highest priorities on top):

  • Sweetness, crispness, and juiciness. As little tartness as possible. Absolutely no bitterness or astringency.
  • Strong flavor. Strongly sweet, too, ideally.
  • Unusual flavors (like banana :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:). An apple that tastes like it already has dessert spices mixed in would be neat. A perfectly crisp, juicy strawberry-flavored apple would rock. Basically if it’s a flavor I like, I’ll probably be interested.
  • Apples that can hang on the tree for a long time without going bad, especially far into the winter.
  • Apples with growth habits that are well-suited to small spaces would be neat.

How about you? What sorts of things would excite you?

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I’m wanting to order seeds from Skillcult too! Seeing that you have done so successfully is encouraging…

I love your list, and what i would add is the following

  • Pink or brightly colored flesh
  • Storage quality for root cellar. I want apples that can be stored without electricity through the winters and until the next season when trees begin to fruit again
  • Both early fruiting, and late fruiting, to maximize the amount of time fresh apples can be available throughout the year.
  • Disease and pest resistance.

I happen to live in an area where Apples are grown in almost every garden. They are everywhere. But i have yet to come across any pink or brightly colored flesh varieties like skill cult has. Those would be some amazing genetics to get ahold of.

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I’m with you on storing apples for many months without electricity. I’m really hoping for Arkansas Black to be awesome – it has a six month shelf life without refrigeration!

There are apples all around me, too. Both backyard trees and commercial orchards. I decided to consider that a giant hint that I should try a whole lot of apple varieties, because that’s a species that clearly loves my climate.

I figure if I can get a wide variety of flavors (and harvest times) within the same species, and it’s a species that happens to do well here, and it’s a species I love eating, and so does everybody else in my family, it’s obvious I need to make it a personal landrace.

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If it’s for fresh eating then good flavour and mouth feel. Doesn’t have to be sweet. Doesn’t have to be crisp either just not mealy. Reasonable storage life.
If it’s for cooking then a good level of tartness helps I think and I like a cooking apple to cook down completely, no lumpy bits.
If it’s for cider I have no idea but I’m guessing a certain amount of astringency (from tannins) would be a good feature to give the cider some depth of flavour.

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Any tasty apple that grows from seed which is maintenance free.

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I bought some Skillcult seeds last year. They’re in the winter nursery now and I’ll plant them out in a few months.

I’d most like apples that store well. I’d like the fruits to be fist-sized. I’d like them to be good for something – cider, fresh eating, baking, whatever. I love sour and bitter flavors, but it can be too much.

ETA: Oh yeah, and they have to survive our winters…

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Another vote here for pink or purple flesh.

Blossom that isn’t too easily damaged by frost would be nice, too, as would a certain amount of imperviousness to codling moth, scab etc, but I would prefer a lower yield and better flavour if pest resistance comes with a flavour tradeoff.

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Sweet/tart
Holds up in pies and canning
Bold flavor
Long storing
Good for fresh eating
Very cold hardy tree (should be the first consideration for me)
Does not look like any store bought apple (They are so boring) Black, Russet or any
interesting coloring

I know we discussed apples a bit in the fruit tree landrace thread, but I’ve refined my thinking a little since then (and since ordering more seeds than I could ever actually need from SkillCult :rofl: )

My two focuses and their necessary traits:

  1. Fresh eating apples: crisp flesh, balanced sweet-tartness, interesting flavors and skin/flesh colors a plus, summer/early fall varieties & winter varieties with good storage and/or long-hanging preferred, disease resistance a must

  2. Processing apples: strong/interesting flavors, fresh eating ability a plus but not required, long-hanging preferred, disease resistance a must

Apples grown from seed fall into at least three categories. “Spitters” aren’t much good for eating but are good for making cider and firewood. “Dessert” apples are good for eating fresh. “Baking” apples often are not tasty at all when raw, but something magical happens when they are baked into a pie or cobbler.

Some apples have crossover characteristics.

All three categories have their value. When you grow from seed, it’s going to take about 8 years to discover what you really have. I think it makes sense to plan for all three categories so you aren’t wasting time and space.

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I agree that people growing apple trees from seed should be open to a wide of range of possible fruits depending on the amount of sugar, acid, and bitterness, as all can have uses. Resistance to fungal diseases like apple scab, rusts, and fireblight is probably something we could select for earlier on, before the trees mature.

The disease resistance issue is super-important with red or pink-fleshed apples, because those descended from a particularly disease-susceptible parent tree. Over the years, these have been improved by cross-breeding with crabapples that are resistant to things like apple scab. It might be worth trying to get some of the newly released red-fleshed varieties and use them as a starting point, rather than the original variety, Niedszwetskyana. Anything we can do to leverage work that other people have already done in the direction of disease-resistance helps. University breeding programs have lots of space and time to do this kind of work - for example, Purdue has some very disease-resistant apple varieties. I grow one of them, William’s Pride, and it is very clean and healthy.

As I also just bought a bunch of seeds from Skillcult… I’m hoping for:

Very cold hardy on both sides of the season
Crisp and sweet
Interesting flavors - already spiced? Heck yeah.
Long storing
Disease resistant
Interesting colors both in and out - dark with red flesh?! Red flesh?? I didn’t even know that was a thing.

That all being said, if it’s not sour/painfully tart, it’ll be great. I can put whatever comes out into my steam juicer and see how that goes. With all the other fruits I’m hoping to grow here, a fruit blend juice would be tasty. Also, it would be nice if it held bold flavor after dehydrating. I can dream, right? :laughing:

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If I find something with an amazing flavor but a mealy or soft texture, my plan is to use those apples for dehydrating! I want apples that are crisp and juicy for fresh eating, but almost any texture works for ones I’m going to dehydrate. :wink:

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Exactly. Having different methods of preservation make pretty much any apple result usable. True, if it tastes bad that’ll get culled, but the root stock could still be used.

The things that make me curious about root stock reminds me of the white papers that mention how plants that are grafted inherit traits from each other (somewhere else in the forum mentions this… goji grafted onto tomato?). Is it possible to inherit bad flavor from yucky root stock? :thinking:

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I read somewhere, I don’t remember where anymore, that when dessert apples are grafted onto tannic crabapples, they tend to develop tannins (a.k.a. bitterness). The person posting about it on a blog somewhere was very excited, because they wanted to turn their “garbage” dessert apple varieties into cider apples by doing that.

I . . . might have exactly the opposite goals as that person . . .

Anyway, it seems very likely rootstock can influence flavor. How much, I don’t know.

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Which is an excellent argument for growing trees from seed and evaluating them based on how they taste when grown on their own roots, I might add!

I’m planning to graft branches of my seedlings onto rootstocks so that I can evaluate fruit sooner (and pull out anything that I definitely don’t want), but I also plan to leave the direct-sown seedlings in place and never transplant them.

Eventually, once the seedling trees start bearing on their own, I won’t need to have them grafted elsewhere, unless I just plain want more branches of them. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Always a strong possibility, if they’re fantastic!

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Yep. I agree with everything you said and that’s generally my plan as well. :grin:

I’m curious about growing some of them in an oblique cordon - espalier style. Have you considered how/where you’re going to plant them all? Maybe you’re not a crazy person like me and didn’t order 20 seeds of all the varieties and aren’t as overwhelmed by dubious life choices…

I ordered 10 seeds of most of the ones I ordered, and 5 each of Lady Williams and Pink Parfait. I planted them all – about 100 seeds total – in an area of about 4 feet by 10 feet. Seeds were spaced roughly about two to three inches apart, in rows roughly about a foot apart.

Too close? Yep, probably! But see, I figure this gives me the opportunity to see which ones thrive best among competition. Those are the ones that should have the deepest roots, and that’s something that’s really important to me. (Since we have arid summers.)

I’m thinking I’ll probably lose a few in each row to bugs eating the seedlings, and I’ll probably lose a few more to the seedlings not being well-suited for my hot, dry summers. So by the end of this year, I’ll probably have about 2-3 seedlings in each row. Those survivors will get the privilege of our nice, easy winters (for apple trees) – zone 7, with lots of water. I expect them to all survive the winter (and if any of them die, they’ll be ridiculous divas that I’m glad to be rid of).

So next year, I will probably have about 30 or so one-year-old whips planted roughly a foot apart in that space. That’s still close, but not bad. They can live that way quite comfortably for a few years. Around the time they start needing more space, I will hopefully have fruit from most of them, and be able to evaluate which should stay and which should go.

As for grafting them, I have a specific plan. I want to keep their central leaders intact (for reasons I’ll explain below), so it seems to me that the ideal way to do that is to start training them the way Steven Edholm (Skillcult) recommends . . . which involves removing buds in places where you don’t want branches.

If I remove those buds carefully, I can use them for bud-grafting that seedling’s genetics onto an older tree! And the seedling will have been disturbed very little.

When their central leaders get taller than I can reach standing on the ground, my plan is to bend the tip of the central leader over to become a new fruiting branch, rather than cutting it off.

Here’s why I think that’s a good idea. Stefan Sobkowiak (Permaculture Orchard) says in one of his YouTube videos that a tree that keeps being pruned is a tree that thinks it needs to put extra energy into growing new wood. The more you prune a tree, the more vigorously it’ll grow back. If, however, it feels comfortable and secure with the wood it has already, it’s more likely to focus most of its energy on reproduction. This leads to it staying smaller and needing less pruning, fruiting more productively, and possibly even fruiting more quickly.

Will this work? I don’t know, but I’d like to find out! I’m hoping to test the hypothesis with my seedlings.

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:joy:

Do you have a video/blog link for where he talks about this?

That’s an interesting take. Did he have citations for this or just noticed this as he’s grown trees over the years?

I’d love to have all our trees have at least 20’ around them to be as huge and luscious as they want, but I’d have to cut down a lot of our forest for that to happen, especially since apples aren’t the only tree I’m introducing up here. Hence why I’m curious about the cordon style. I wouldn’t necessarily want them All to be planted like that, but a dozen or so, sure. I’m eventually going to have to drop quite a few maples and other evergreens to clear space for all the food trees we want to add. I’m more resistant to cutting the acorn/nut producers we already have growing because, well, food. But we have 10 acres of mountainside, so the smallish area near the house can stand to be thinned a bit.

What I’m hearing is that we’re going to need an apple seed steward in a couple years… :thinking: Or sooner. You mentioned that lots of folks around you have apple trees, and our area is Full of old apple trees. Hubs said we should start collecting them from all over and add these as a grex next year. Thoughts?

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“That’s an interesting take. Did he have citations for this or just noticed this as he’s grown trees over the years?”

Can’t remember the specific video, but Stefan Sobkowiak references the book “Growing Fruit Trees - Novel concepts and practices for successful care and Management” by Jean-Marie Lespinasse and Evelyne Leterme (translated from French). It describes the management of 15 fruit trees, apples make up about 25 pages of the book. The key take-away, for me, is to train branches instead of pruning them. Training them to be horizontal or below horizontal, as it encourages fruit formation and keeps the natural form of the tree. You’d still need to prune, especially if the natural shape of the tree is not what you want.

Maarten

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